Turn left and the horn goes off

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:12 am Post subject: Turn left and the horn goes off

Hi everyone!

My 1970 AT Fastback has been having issues with the turn signals, horn and headlights.
The horn had died so we went to take the steering wheel off and that's when the turn signal assembly fell apart. Finally got the part to put it back together and got the horn working again (the wire was barely attached to the clip that is down the steering column).

So now the issue is that the the turn signal arm is behaving oddly. When I pull the knob to turn on my headlights, only the running lights come on. The only way to get the headlights on is to turn the brights on using the lever and then find the sweet spot where the brights turn off but the regular headlights stay on. While holding the lever in this sweet spot, I have to start driving or be driving for them to stick. If I'm in neutral, they will turn off and I'll only be able to use the brights.

I also notice that if I can get the regular headlights to stay on, they will dim or intermittently shut off on a bumpy road. SO annoying!

Even more fun is that when I turn left, usually a hard left, the horn will sound. This happens probably 60% of the time that I make a hard left. Sometimes the horn is faint, sometimes it's a quick honk and sometimes it takes a couple seconds to shut up. Not fun. (I've tested left turns using and not using the signal at the time of turning and it doesn't have an effect on whether or not the horn will sound)

Thing is, I can't figure out why this would be happening. The wires all look good. I don't see anything touching where it shouldn't. Fuse for the signals was replaced.

What should I look at next or what should I look at more closely? Thanks in advance!

***edited to add: I did do a search here for similar problems but didn't find much. I did read here that someone was saying to loosen the screws that hold the horn in place. That did help a little, in that instead of the horn sounding 90% of the time during left turns it does it about 60% of the time. Small victories I suppose.

KTPhil · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:51 am Post subject:

What is the gap between the steering wheel and the column? It is adjusted by loosening the allen head cap screws and sliding the column up or down the shaft.
Do you hear scraping sounds when you turn the wheel?
Do you feel play when you move the wheel up and down or side to side?

nogoodwithusernames · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:54 am Post subject:

I had a similar problem with the horn going off on sharp turns, if I remember correctly it was also left only.
I pulled the steering wheel and column off and cleaned up the terminals and assembled and adjusted making sure the column wasn't too close to the steering wheel and I haven't had a problem since I put it back together.
It's pretty simple to do, just make sure you have your wheels straight when you pull the steering wheel off so it goes back on straight.
_________________
71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet

-Derek

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:32 am Post subject:

Thank you both so much!

KTPhil- I will take a look at the gap but I do remember that there is a slight one. Maybe a 1/2". I don't hear scraping sounds but there are some clicks. I can't move the steering wheel up, down or side to side. It's firmly in place.

nogood-Thanks for the info. I'll try it tonight.

sjbartnik · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:35 am Post subject:

The reason the horn is going off when you're turning is because the horn ring is grounding out to either the column or to the ground wire for the horn that runs down the center of the steering column. Normally this only happens when you push the horn button but something is out of whack or mis-routed or mis-installed based on what you just did and it's causing it to ground when the wheel is turned.

Most likely this is due to improper adjustment of the steering wheel-to-column gap as KTPhil mentioned - see Bentley for spec.

As for the headlights thing, double check the wires for the headlight dimmer relay that go through the turn signal switch. One is a solid brown that comes out and grounds somewhere under the dash (mine grounds to one of the fuse box mounting screws but it's an older car than yours) and the other is the brown/white wire that goes to the headlight dimmer relay. Make sure you didn't pinch this wire somewhere on your installation - if it's grounding out somewhere it could make the headlight relay do funny things. Make sure you didn't knock loose any ground wires under the dash while you were doing this job.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

KTPhil · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:51 am Post subject:

The correct gap is only something like 2-3mm, if I remember right. Too large a gap can break the turn signal switch guts, which can then short the horn. Do your turn signals cancel correctly after a turn?

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:55 am Post subject:

Sjbartnik -
I thought the brown wire was for the horn?

Interesting. I need to look at it in depth. I have the Bentley, I'll check out the wheel to column gap.

Thank you!

sjbartnik · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:07 am Post subject:

TMI Products · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:04 pm Post subject:

What if the horn goes off when you use the left turn signal?
_________________
Mario De Leon
1965 Turbo Mustang Fastback
1966 Type 3 Fastback
VW Division Sales Manager
[email protected]

TMI Products
1493 Bentley Dr.
Corona Ca, 92879
1-800-624-7960
951-272-1584 FAX

KTPhil · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject:

VWporscheGT3 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject:

Donald used to do that... but mine in general was if i tugged too hard on the column, something was grounding out and making it toot... found out later that the housing clamp at the column tube was broken... dont know if that was the root of the problem since the car isn't back together yet. Rolling Eyes

_________________
Schnell, SCHNELL!

I like being wrong, Because, it is another opportunity to learn. If you stop learning from your mistakes than what is the point?

If you have any questions about Forged ICON 4032 VW pistons just shoot me a line.

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:53 am Post subject:

KTPhil - they don't cancel after I've made the turn. Not consistently, anyway.

KTPhil · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:21 am Post subject:

I'd search for threads about replacing the turn signal switch, and check out the photos. I have a few but it isn't comprehensive. Something may be broken or far out of adjustment, and that can damage more parts. Some are one-year only so it can get expensive.

Equipped with the Bentley manual, photos and a few tools, you can pull off the steering wheel, clean/replace parts as necessary, and then put it back on, then adjust the column position. If you've never done it is can be daunting, but with photos it should make sense. Any Samba members nearby who can guide you? The late Bugs/Ghias were similar so they don't have to be Type 3 nuts.

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:06 am Post subject:

KTPhil - Thank you so much! I didn't get to go out there this weekend but hope to get in there this evening.
I need to find a local, that's for sure!

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:46 am Post subject:

Worked on these issues last night.

Noticed that the ground for the turn signal was frayed and not so well connected and both wires were pinched. Fixed those issues.

The brown wire for the horn was frayed and slightly exposed. Put electrical tape over it.

The gap between the steering wheel and column was okay but re-gapped it anyway.

Test drove it and it still honks on left turns. I'm at a loss. Could the issue be further down the wiring into the steering column?
When people say that they clean the terminals, what exactly does that mean? Where are those?
Should I take the steering column off all together?

nogoodwithusernames · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject:

So do the headlights work properly now and just the horn is still being funny?

It could be further down somewhere, since it is happening when there is motion in the column, one of the wires along the column could also be frayed grounding the horn and causing it to go off.

The terminals are just the wire connectors, which there are plenty of ways to clean. You just want them to be clean so they can transfer electricity easily.

As far as removing the column I don't think it would hurt, and it would be easier to inspect and see if anything looks worn or damaged. It is pretty easy to remove, should just be a snap ring on the steering column itself and a few bolts underneath it.
_________________
71 Squareback, 1.7l T4 w/ crank trigger fuel and spark
(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
74 914, 2.0L w/ D-Jet

-Derek

KTPhil · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject:

My sticky covers ignition switch replacement on my '71, but much of it will be common with your column removal:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=616570

It may help to see what is underneath.

Be very careful... this job is a combination of some large forces needed (big steering wheel nut and big circlip) and fragile parts nearby (easy to chip the steering wheel hub with the big wrench; those two plastic "tits" that the "W-spring" fits to are the number one failure/oops-break part; and finally the three super fine threads into soft metal which hold the three horn ring screws/springs/toothed washers/insulators). That is the only thing making it a hard job, but care and good tool grip are essential.

Dolly_Dagger · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:21 am Post subject:

nogoodwithusernames - well, so far the headlights still work. It's the horn that is still acting up.

KTPhil - I'm going to check out your sticky again. Thanks for reminding me and including a link here.

Yesterday I went back out to take a closer look at where the wire may be frayed. Didn't take off the column but definitely got deeper into the set up and nothing looks out of place. It's starting to get dark earlier now and by the time I get out of work, there isn't much daylight left. I will probably wait until the weekend to take the column off. That said, I'm a little scared now, since it's so touchy but I really appreciate you telling me what to look for and how to approach the situation. Thank you so much!
Wish I was closer to Conejo Valley...I'd buy you a beer. (or whatever you drink!)

Mike Fisher · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:50 am Post subject:

I bought an elastic battery powered light that fits on your head after seeing my son use his a lot for good lighting. Idea

_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

sjbartnik · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:02 am Post subject:


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

	Forum Index -> Type 3	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time Page: 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2