'63 6V Starting issues

[Rippers]

My newly acquired '63 1200cc bug is on all original 6V

The seller told it it started 'occasionally' it didn't start when I saw it but the deal was good and I wanted it so its my problem to fix..

Now I have searched and I realise this is a process of elimination.

The previous one told me he bought a new battery to fix the issue and that didn't work and he was convinced the bush needs changing on the starter in the gearbox housing and supplied one with the car.

I however am not convinced.. yes the bush probably doesn't help and I will change if needs must. The starter doesn't click or even make an noise. I haven't taken the starter off yet to bench test and will be doing that later today.

I think possibly there is an electric fault. The reason I say this is the battery when on charge with the charger connected says that battery needs charging and sits at 6.2v. I tried taking the cars wiring loom leads off the battery when charging and the charger says he battery is fully charged. Could this be due to something earthing out? or a bad earth? The battery strap on the battery is brand new and looks to be nicely connected to bar metal, I will check the gearbox strap today too. Anything else to look at off the tops of your heads?

Can you see anything obviously wrong with the way this is wired.. haven't checked the wiring diagram yet

Any help or pointers would be greatly received

[carcrazed]

The way it is wired looks correct. It could be a number of things. Make sure you are getting 6 volts at the starter when you try and start it. If you are, then I would suspect the starter is bad. If not, something else is not supplying the voltage to the starter or solenoid. From there, work your way back to the ignition switch and make sure all wires are on there and hooked up correctly. As said many times here on the Samba...check your grounds as the 6 volt systems are VERY finicky about having good, clean grounds.
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1965 Herbie Replica. 1776cc dual Kads.
1961 Beetle 33,000 Original Miles

"Just When you think you are getting ahead, you're always wrong."

[Rippers]

There was another wore hidden in view of the first pic

[Rippers]

Progress so far

The bush looks fine to me!?!

The starter doesn't look too old and nice to see its a Bosch

With the battery out of the car I tried a positive lead to the push connector 50 and negative side of the battery to the main post and nothing its like the starter is dead. Am I testing it correctly?

Being this is a Bosch and fairly new looking is it repairable at home DIY? at first glance they are incredibly expensive to replace

[grandpa pete]

The starter ALWAYS has battery and ground on it !!
You have to cross the big battery terminal to the terminal with the small wire on it with a screwdriver to simulate turning the key
Be careful the starter will try to pull itself out of your hands while doing this test .
you should have two people
make shure you cross to the top double terminal and NOT the single bottom one
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63 two fold rag
66 sedan delivery Type 6

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569619&highlight=sedan+delivery

[Rippers]

Ok so if I touch the positive on the male tab the solenoid pops out fine

If I put the positive on the large outer threaded connector and put the screwdriver across this and the tab, solenoid pops out a bit erractially and it doesn't turn

[grandpa pete]

does the STARTER TURN when you cross the large positive post with 12 volts on it with the small top terminal ?
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63 two fold rag
66 sedan delivery Type 6

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569619&highlight=sedan+delivery

[sjbartnik]

Yes the starter will not turn when it's not mounted in the car unless it's a self-supporting starter.

The bushing in the bellhousing is what keeps the starter armature from binding when the starter is installed.

You can do that test with starter installed, just make doubly sure that the transmission is in neutral and the parking brake is set. If you leave the trans in gear you will run yourself over when the starter cranks the engine.

What are you using as your power source? A battery charger ain't gonna do it.

With starter installed and connected as it should be, bridging the 2 big terminals with a screwdriver should make the motor run without engaging the solenoid (i.e. motor will spin but engine won't crank). Be prepared for big spark show when you do this, don't hold onto the metal part of the screwdriver, and be sure not to ground the metal part of the screwdriver while it's in contact with the battery-connected post or you will smoke the wire and weld your screwdriver to whatever ground point you touch.

Jumping the big terminal from battery to the spade terminal where the ignition switch wire connects will make the starter and solenoid operate as if you turned the key, i.e. solenoid will activate and when it reaches the end of its travel the motor should turn, this one will crank the engine.

You see the two big posts on the back of the solenoid? One of them gets power from the battery. The other one has a very short braided wire that runs into the solenoid. Those posts enter the case of the solenoid and have contacts inside. When you hit the solenoid with 6v at the spade terminal, it kicks out the starter shaft and at the same time moves an internal contact which bridges those two posts inside the solenoid which shunts 6v direct from battery to motor. So when you bridge those two posts outside the solenoid, you are just sending power direct from battery to motor without activating the solenoid.

If it works properly in this test, you can start looking at voltage drop in the wire from the ignition switch. Also your trans ground strap needs to be in good shape for the starter to work reliably.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[Rippers]

More progress, thanks for the replies so far!

OK I put the starter back in, cleaned up the tranny ground and still nothing doesn't even make a click.

I heard a multimeter to the male spade tab (50) and other side to ground and asked my son to turn the key to the starter and I got 6V.. so now I'm really confused

I searched and someone mentioned putting a lead directly between the male spade tab (50) and to the 6V directly on the battery.. and it spun and fired up!

So now I'm really confused if the starter and its bush are ok, the switch is putting 6V yet doesn't start it. How do I test the switch properly?

Am I missing something? can someone clever please tell me whats wrong pretty please

[sjbartnik]

[Lidpainter]

I had a similar problem with my starter, also a rebuilt Bosch. Sometimes it started, sometimes it didn't. When I went under the car to jump the terminals, both the solenoid and the starter tested fine. Cleaned all the connections on both ends, checked the battery and the ground strap. Thought it was the switch but the meter showed it was getting full power at the starter. Took the starter off and once all the wires were disconnected it was clear that the post on the solenoid was not stationary. It moved in and out, left and right, up and down. Tracing those erratic start gremlins can be a real pain but there's really only so many things it can be.
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[Rippers]

Got the bugger!

Dry/corroded joint on the regulator lead it was literally rattling around inside the housing

Bit of plumbers flux and soldering iron and it turned from the ignition switch

Happy days!

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Typical and easy mistake..

It had a voltage drop for circuit 50 in this case by way of B+.
Improper testing with a volt meter can give misleading results..

High resistance can still allow proper voltage... but will drop the current flow..

Think of this example.......
A wire is damaged has one tiny strand left...(high resistance). when tested with a meter.. it can still have the correct source voltage... but load it up with say a bulb.. and it doesnt light...

Thats voltage drop 101....

Dirty or failed connections... OR a bad ignition switch..
a very very common 6 volt issue..

Class dismissed..
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[Rippers]

Glad I didn't have to fork out for a Starter motor among things

[Eric&Barb]

Well do not stop! Other end of that cable at starter solenoid has same junk terminal badly put on it, needs to be soldered or replaced with proper factory swedged on terminal.

NEVER test starter without rear bushing support or risk damaging the starter. Also check front bushing in the starter and brushes is a must. Still since you did not get a solenoid "click" the problem would not be the bushings or brushes.....

Polish clean the surfaces of the starter and transaxle for a good ground and apply dielectric grease to keep oxygen and thusly corrosion away fro as long as possible.

Remove the starter solenoid and give it same cleaning and greasing so it grounds to the starter.

Keep going thru the rest of the wiring cleaning, soldering if need be and greasing.
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In Stereo, Where Available!

[Rippers]

Well the problems continue

Whilst the starter is now working, it is very slow and nit quite enough to get the engine started.

I assumed I had flattened the battery with all the mucking around but the time I found the wire at fault.

After a nights charging it is still slow, I hooked up my wire to the male spade (50) on the starter again and put it straight onto the battery and it was definitely faster but still not quite enough to start the engine..

Any tips or ideas to look into?

Does the regulator play a art in starting the car?

I checked the fuse box as I read that earlier ones could do with solder but it appears to be a newish Wolfsburg West box which appeared to have spot welded pins like the newer boxes so doubt this is a problem

[Rippers]

Ok so modern cars have got me into bad habits and I always press the clutch down when starting cars.
I read somewhere that this can cause slow starting so tried it and whilst still a little slow for my liking it was fast enough to start the bug every time I tried so let just see how it goes. Despite soldering the wiring ends I think I'll order some new battery/starter cables just to make sure

[sjbartnik]

[Eric&Barb]

1. Did you remove the starter for polishing and greasing as posted before? Check the other bushing and brushes inside starter??

2. Have you soldered up all those replaced terminals with that yellow plastic collars on them? If you see any other colored collared terminals you need to solder them on or replace with factory terminals and swedged on with a ratchet crimp tool.

3. Have you removed both battery cables to clean both ends of both cables, and grease them? If you have any of those battery replacement clamps that bolt/clamp onto the battery cable when you cut off the old one? If so replace the whole battery cable with new one which has clamp swedged onto the cable so as to have a gas tight connection there that oxygen, acid which causes corrosion can not get into.

4. Done same as #3 to the transaxle to body ground cable?

5. Clean and grease up all connections between gen/reg, starter? Not only the wires thru those areas, but any grounding points like the regulator mounts.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!

[Rippers]

I changed the bush tonight, greased it up and whilst very slightly improved.. still slow..

Bought and fitted new battery cables.

The Optima battery is strong and could crank the starter for ever so plenty of juice..

I'm left with thinking either the replacement starter is naff or something engine or clutch related it making the engine turn slowly.

Going to see how well it cranks without spark plugs in tomorrow to see if the engine is loose.. and whether the starter is actually even capable turning fast.
I can't see it being the engine tight as I can push start the car within a few meters.

What on earth could it be grrr.. my money is on it being a naff starter