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2Dokas
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2004
Posts: 752
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:05 am Post subject: 36hp engine assembly - oil pump |
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Finally getting the engine cases back together, and found (I think) the issue that caused me to tear it apart 2x.
This time I turned the crank a ton during and after tightening each bolt, took a while but after torquing all the case nuts everything was great.
Put the gears of the oil pump in and still seemed fine,
put the cover on and torqued to 5 lbs and it started to bind.
pulled of the cover to see if there was something causing the cover to bind,
pushed it towards the gears and could get it to bind.
even bound up with the cover off.
here is a shot of the end of the oil pump gear,.
maybe this is why?
Both ends, one seems worse and had a distinct lip.
think I can just file it smooth?
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87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Even though its going to be hard to find,
I'd strongly recommend you search for a new oil pump.
That drive tang is seriously worn.
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2Dokas
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2004
Posts: 752
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:40 am Post subject: |
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thanks
assuming I cant find one, which I have not looked,
I have seen several Wheeler Dealer episodes to assume you can weld new material and then grind. (They added material to a crank and reground it)
peter
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87 Doka 2WD Ej22,
56 Convertible |
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3foldfolly
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2009
Posts: 894
Location: Edwardsville, Il
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carnut63
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2009
Posts: 336
Location: Murrieta, CA & Everett, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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It's also advised to not do anything you see on Wheeler Dealers.
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---> Mar 2 1955 Strato Silver Oval <---
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4095
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 2Dokas wrote: |
thanks
assuming I cant find one, which I have not looked,
I have seen several Wheeler Dealer episodes to assume you can weld new material and then grind. (They added material to a crank and reground it)
peter |
While this is technically true, it is not as simple as welding and grinding.
Buy a new pump.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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Jrb572
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2013
Posts: 191
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I have not found anyone who carries it. That has them in stock. I was going to replace mine to just make sure it had a new pump. |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Those have not been available for a while now.
Whether you decide to attempt repairing your existing pump or buy a new one you should go through the motions of learning how to measure all of the clearances and make adjustments to the fit of the parts to make it work as well as is possible. There's some good reading on this site and some links to a couple of outside web resources on how to do this. But in general you should be looking at the fit of that shaft in your hand to make sure it isn't bottoming out on the camshaft, clearance between that gear shaft and the bore of the pump, tight fit of the other gear shaft to the pump body, clearance between both gears and the sides of the pump, deck height of the gears (top of the pump to top of the gears as if they were pistons in a cylinder), flatness and rigidity of the cover, and a tight fit between the pump body and the bore of the crankcase. All of those things above can mean the difference between having great oil pressure with a stock 17mm pump or having terrible pressure from a faulty 21mm pump.
Here is a 21mm pump for sale, looks like it might have 8mm stud holes but those fit right over the 6mm studs and if you use a 6mm stud cover then you can use your normal washers and nuts and it will be fine. Start shopping for an NOS or good used 17mm pump if you want to put it back to stock someday, it might take you some time to find one though. Remember, even new pumps need to be checked for clearances.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=943049 |
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3foldfolly
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2009
Posts: 894
Location: Edwardsville, Il
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
Those have not been available for a while now.
Whether you decide to attempt repairing your existing pump or buy a new one you should go through the motions of learning how to measure all of the clearances and make adjustments to the fit of the parts to make it work as well as is possible. There's some good reading on this site and some links to a couple of outside web resources on how to do this. But in general you should be looking at the fit of that shaft in your hand to make sure it isn't bottoming out on the camshaft, clearance between that gear shaft and the bore of the pump, tight fit of the other gear shaft to the pump body, clearance between both gears and the sides of the pump, deck height of the gears (top of the pump to top of the gears as if they were pistons in a cylinder), flatness and rigidity of the cover, and a tight fit between the pump body and the bore of the crankcase. All of those things above can mean the difference between having great oil pressure with a stock 17mm pump or having terrible pressure from a faulty 21mm pump.
Here is a 21mm pump for sale, looks like it might have 8mm stud holes but those fit right over the 6mm studs and if you use a 6mm stud cover then you can use your normal washers and nuts and it will be fine. Start shopping for an NOS or good used 17mm pump if you want to put it back to stock someday, it might take you some time to find one though. Remember, even new pumps need to be checked for clearances.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=943049 |
You could mount the later pump using 6x1.0 to 8x1.25mm step studs https://www.belmetric.com/metric-studs-metric-step-studs-6810mm-c-9_73.html |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually that step stud arrangement doesn't work as the 8mm case and pump holes are moved 1mm outward. That means that the 6mm case studs touch only one side of the 8mm pump holes when it's installed. Using 8mm step studs would cause interference. |
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3foldfolly
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2009
Posts: 894
Location: Edwardsville, Il
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
| Actually that step stud arrangement doesn't work as the 8mm case and pump holes are moved 1mm outward. That means that the 6mm case studs touch only one side of the 8mm pump holes when it's installed. Using 8mm step studs would cause interference. |
. You learn something new here on the Samba every day! Thanks for the correction. I think I'd hold out for the correct pump. Air cooled research price is a little steep but there is no indication they're out of stock |
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Mr. Motorhead
Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004
Posts: 717
Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Snort wrote: |
| Aircooled Research price is a little steep but there is no indication they're out of stock |
And for good reason as they have been a little hard to source (that and I also send a resurfaced cover with it). I just sold my last one, now I'm out of stock and will have to find more. I notice a couple WTB ads here as well looking for the same thing. BTW, if you order the 6mm pump off CIP1 you will get a 8mm pump, they don't have them either.
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30 years experience in the sales of new and used auto parts!
36 horsepower parts for sale at http://www.aircooledresearch.com/
Or the new site at http://www.bugparts.com
Check out the Bonneville project:
http://aircooledresearch.com/docs/thebonnevilleproject.html#
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:01 am Post subject: |
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That's a simple add and grind fix. The shape is easily reproduced to within a few mil, and as long as the tang doesn't bottom out in the cam slot, no problems
But most importantly, I'm not sure you have found the source of the binding problem yet. How can wear on the tang make the cover bind?
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2Dokas
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2004
Posts: 752
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Abscate wrote: |
…..
But most importantly, I'm not sure you have found the source of the binding problem yet. How can wear on the tang make the cover bind? |
I also replaced the cam, and I don't have it any longer to look carefully, but my guess is both parts wore out together and they fit, or perhaps it was binding up all along,
I had never driven the car nor ran the engine, PO said it was a fuel pump issue, but I didn't bother, I just wanted to rebuild a 36hp. 
once the new one shows up I will report on the binding,
peter
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Mr. Motorhead
Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004
Posts: 717
Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:19 am Post subject: |
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One other small thing to consider. Sometimes (not always) the end of the cam may be slightly different where the drive groove for the for the oil pump is. This sometimes does not allow the gear drive to seat all the way down in the slot. All it takes for that to happen is just a few thousandths to push the gear into the cover making it bind up. Most all the new pumps have a little extra clearance to accommodate all cam styles. The simple remedy to a problem like that is to put the drive gear in a press and press the drive shaft into the gear as needed to clear (in case anyone runs into that problem in the future).
_________________
30 years experience in the sales of new and used auto parts!
36 horsepower parts for sale at http://www.aircooledresearch.com/
Or the new site at http://www.bugparts.com
Check out the Bonneville project:
http://aircooledresearch.com/docs/thebonnevilleproject.html#
"All limitations are self imposed."
Some Chinese guy |
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