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Help With Rear Wheel Drums
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VirtuallyReal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Help With Rear Wheel Drums Reply with quote

Could someone help me ID this drum? I looked up the codes (both in the forum and Google) and i got nothing:

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Also, any tips on removing that center nut? I tried an adjustable wrench with a cheat bar, and it didn't do the trick....
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mandraks
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure i get what you are looking to learn?

looks like a vw brasil drum? somebody installed studs.

there is a cheap tool to remove the axle nut.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181791179192?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

or get a proper 46 mm socket and either a large wrench or an impact. Those come off every day....
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VirtuallyReal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mandraks wrote:
not sure i get what you are looking to learn?


Well, think Jon Snow... I know nothing!

First, since the wheel is off, is it safe to just put 1st gear and apply that much force on the nut? I was a bit worried i was going to break something in the axle or trans...

Also, my bus has IRS, and all the info i have is that the conversion was made using parts from a beetle... but I don't know if the drums are from a beetle too... So i was hoping someone could tell me something more specific about the drums, since that will come handy in the future if i have to replace them, or have to get parts for the brakes.


mandraks wrote:
looks like a vw brasil drum? somebody installed studs.


Brasil drums? Go figure... maybe someone can confirm.
The bus has aftermarket rims (EMPI i belive) so maybe thats why the PO installed the studs.
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Last edited by VirtuallyReal on Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Z
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Ind Bras' is typically found on VW Brasil parts - not at all uncommon. Can't help you further on ID'ing the drums as I'm not a lowered bus guy....not that there's anything wrong with it... Wink

Usual procedure for loosening (and final tightening) of the axle nut is to do it with the wheel on the ground, then jack, remove wheel, remove axle nut, drum, etc. For really tight ones I usually chock the wheel and let that take the force instead of the trans.
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Clara Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VirtuallyReal wrote:
mandraks wrote:
not sure i get what you are looking to learn?


Well, think Jon Snow... I know nothing!

First, since the wheel is off, is it safe to just put 1st gear and apply that much force on the nut? I was a bit worried i was going to break something in the axle or trans...


Dude, get yourself an Idiot book. It has some safety tips for the non-experienced.. and lots of useful info on how to work on old VWs.

Put the wheels back on and put the bus on the ground before undoing the axle nut. You don't want the bus to fall on anyone. Pull ebrake. If the ebrake doesn't work, you need to chock the wheels or have someone step on the brakes.

You need a whacker tool or 36mm socket to undo that axle nut. use a 3/4" drive socket, too easy to break the 1/2" drive. And 3/4" drive slide bar.

FWIW, that cotter pin is installed correctly
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VirtuallyReal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clara i do have the book... But the main purpose of the thread was try to ID the drums, and while i was at it, i figured it wouldn't hurt to ask for some tips about removing the nut.

The bus came with the e-brake cable dangling around. I got the required spacers to re-install them, and that's actually the reason why i need to open the drums; I'll make sure to follow all your instructions, thanks.

I didn't know that nut was called "axle nut", but after i learned that, i made a search and found a lot of people asking the exact same question i did.

My bus is at a 40 min. drive away from home, and it didn't occurred to me that i was going to need to bring the book to do this. Next time I'll make sure i bring it.

BTW the bus was on a (original) jack + 2 extra jack stands, just in case. I believe safety was not an issue, but as always, thanks for your help Clara.

I'm yet to find out what VW model these drums came from... someone mentioned they might be brazilian, but it would be nice to know for sure, and know the model (bus, beetle, thing, etc.)
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out your year of "Owner's manual" thru the "Technical" button at the top of this webpage. Lots of need to know info there. Make two copies, one for home, one for your VW.

Get the "Workshop Manual" for your year and type of VW. These manuals are reprints of the ones that the VW dealer mechanics used to repair VWs.

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/accessories/books.cfm

Do some searching of the WWW for a used copy if you need to save your pennies, but get one ASAP!

You can also go thru the parts manual, which has lots of exploded diagrams and very helpful names of each part and part numbers that can be used to search the WWW for those parts. The "Full Index" is easier to find what you want.

http://oacdp.org/5867part.html
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is nobody answering his questions? None of that ^^^ will help when he has a non-bus based rear suspension swap.


The drums are of Brazilian manufacture, and if the IRS kit is beetle based, they will almost certainly be beetle drums. Show a few photos from a few different angles, and some of the CV joints where they meet the trans and rear axle. That will help ID the rest of the drive train which will help with a more definitive ID of the drum.
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Clara Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't answer the question about the drum as I can't tell from the pic. Usually the part number is on the inside of the drum IIRC.
Ya looks like a bug drum to me too, but I'm not sure which version, and the op said he had beetle IRS rears so I thought he knew that much.
Ind Bras means "made in Brazil" and doesn't say what car it fits.
So I only answered the question about removing the axle nut.

The wind could blow a bus off a stock jack.
I personally act as though a 7.0 earthquake could happen.
Bring the book and *read* it. Wink Very Happy
All four wheels on ground for axle nuts. You may get lucky and it not fall off the jackstands undoing the nut, but those can require a lot of effort to come loose.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This drum has a part number on the inside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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tanhis
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you convert a bus to IRS whit beetle parts but want to keep bus brake drums you need to buy small nut 36mm reduction gear drums and machine 17mm off the surface where the axle nut meets so from the look of the drum I would say that these are machined late 50's bus drums.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
Why is nobody answering his questions? None of that ^^^ will help when he has a non-bus based rear suspension swap.


Figured it was already answered that it is a Brazilian drum. OP also posted that he did not know what an "Axle Nut" was called. No big deal, we all had to start to learn this nomenclature to be able to communicate about fixing/repairing/maintaining these VWs. Otherwise we are all going to have lots of fun answering questions of how to fix the "Whatchamacallit" or "thingamajig".

Sure he has IRS type 1 rear suspension, but bet you that the brake drum or axle nut on a type 1 or 3 is called the same name!! Plus unless the OP only has part of the VW in the image and the rest was cut off and lost, we are betting not, and he will have much need of even more info. Since he is posting in the type 2 forum betting he will have lots of bus questions that will need answering, and having the manuals mentioned above will help greatly.

Sometimes answering the unasked questions helps even more. EG some newbie asks what gaskets are needed for oil change, and we might chime up with "beware over torquing the sump studs", even if the poster might not have asked about shearing off the studs there....
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Z
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VirtuallyReal wrote:
... i figured it wouldn't hurt to ask for some tips about removing the nut.

BTW the bus was on a (original) jack + 2 extra jack stands, just in case. I believe safety was not an issue...

someone mentioned they might be brazilian, but it would be nice to know for sure


You are getting tips about removing the nut: PUT THE WHEELS ON THE GROUND. Don't 'believe' that safety is not an issue, rather make certain that it isn't. The ground will do a much better job of keeping the axle from turning as you try to loosen the nut.

Noone said they MIGHT be Brazilian....they are Brazilian. As stated, w/o some more info, they can't be id'd. as yet.


Last edited by Z on Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanhis wrote:
If you convert a bus to IRS whit beetle parts but want to keep bus brake drums you need to buy small nut 36mm reduction gear drums and machine 17mm off the surface where the axle nut meets so from the look of the drum I would say that these are machined late 50's bus drums.


This is a distinct possibility, that is why more photos are required. Could also be early bay IRS and brakes, or type 3.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
Why is nobody answering his questions? None of that ^^^ will help when he has a non-bus based rear suspension swap.


Figured it was already answered that it is a Brazilian drum. OP also posted that he did not know what an "Axle Nut" was called. No big deal, we all had to start to learn this nomenclature to be able to communicate about fixing/repairing/maintaining these VWs. Otherwise we are all going to have lots of fun answering questions of how to fix the "Whatchamacallit" or "thingamajig".

Sure he has IRS type 1 rear suspension, but bet you that the brake drum or axle nut on a type 1 or 3 is called the same name!! Plus unless the OP only has part of the VW in the image and the rest was cut off and lost, we are betting not, and he will have much need of even more info. Since he is posting in the type 2 forum betting he will have lots of bus questions that will need answering, and having the manuals mentioned above will help greatly.

Sometimes answering the unasked questions helps even more. EG some newbie asks what gaskets are needed for oil change, and we might chime up with "beware over torquing the sump studs", even if the poster might not have asked about shearing off the studs there....


True, but the Bentley manual really only helps if the bus is nearly bone stock, or if the reader has at least some working knowledge of the common changes and upgrades that have been done to these vehicles by the owners over the last 50 years.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:

True, but the Bentley manual really only helps if the bus is nearly bone stock, or if the reader has at least some working knowledge of the common changes and upgrades that have been done to these vehicles by the owners over the last 50 years.


True that, but betting that there is still plenty of type 2 still left in his type 2 that will need type 2 info for working on it.

Personally we carry on trips the first volume of the 63-67 transporter original workshop manual, a 1970s "Without Guesswork" and a copy of the 1968- Beetle "VW Official Service Manual" the later manuals to cover the later engine we are running.
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Z
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned earlier, the inside of the drum should have a part number cast into it, so when you get it off you can i.d. it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:


True, but the Bentley manual really only helps if the bus is nearly bone stock, or if the reader has at least some working knowledge of the common changes and upgrades that have been done to these vehicles by the owners over the last 50 years.


Ya, the split bus Bentley books are great for a lot of things you won't find anywhere else. But it is written to work on buses when they are pretty much new, and not for IRS in a split bus.

My 61 has 1 ton (64-67) suspension and a 1600 SP doghoused motor, so the the earlier Bentley doesn't help as well with that.
So I need
the earlier split bus Bentley,
the later split bus Bentley,
a 70s bug Bentley... depending what part I am looking at.
Plus the Idiot book.
Plus I have a photocopy of the 63 edition Type II Parts List in the garage, which is great for exploded diagrams.
Plus knowledge of various accessories I've added
And I have to know which parts are from what, so I know which book to pick up and which parts to order.

The great thing about the Idiot book is it isn't written for just one year and model, and it is written for the non-mechanic so if you don't already know how to do the job it still makes sense.
The other books seemed like so much gibberish to me until I understood a certain amount.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
tanhis wrote:
If you convert a bus to IRS whit beetle parts but want to keep bus brake drums you need to buy small nut 36mm reduction gear drums and machine 17mm off the surface where the axle nut meets so from the look of the drum I would say that these are machined late 50's bus drums.


This is a distinct possibility, that is why more photos are required. Could also be early bay IRS and brakes, or type 3.


Bay irs is whit 46mm axlenut so I would count that out even by looking at the picture.

And it is really hard to get the axlenut loose or torqued to the right spec if the wheel is attached so make the easy flatiron tool to keep the drum on place while torquing or undoing the nut. You can use the same flatiron to undo the flywheelnut.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow thanks to all of you for the feedback provided!

As Clara mentioned, i do need to read the book A LOT MORE Smile

This is my first classic car, and i have no background on working on cars either; i usually try to do as much research as i can before asking on the forum, but in this specific case, i needed info on identifying the drums, and the pictures i provided were all i had at the time.

Just to clarify:

- My bus is a 1964 Standard Microbus (walkthrough).
- 1600 dp
- IRS conversion.
- 12v conversion.
- electronic ignition.
- Flipped spindles.


- i asked the guy that did all the metalwork on the bus, which BTW is a VW expert (allegedly one of the best here in Florida) about my IRS/Trans, and all he told me was "it has an IRS conversion made with beetle parts". That's ALL the info i have. i asked specifically about the trannie and he just said "i dont know specifically what trannie you have"... So either he didn't want to bother giving me the info or he just didnt know and/or didn't care, because it had nothing to do with the work he was being paid for.

I already have:
- the idiot's book
- owners workshop manual (1954-1967) for 1192cc and 1493cc engines (brookland books).
- planning on buying the bentley manual.

... And more importantly: I'm an avid reader of the split bus forum here on thesamba! I check for new posts EVERY DAY, and im constantly learning a lot. I've been told i'm not exactly a slow learner, so i guess that has helped too.. but as Clara said, i do have a lot of reading ahead of me, although i believe nothing tops hands-on experience, and that takes SOME TIME to develop Smile

So far I've been blessed with a very solid, mechanically sound bus: it starts right away, engine has zero leaks, all electrical works, brakes are perfectly fine; the bus in currently undergoing a full restoration, and that's the main reason why so far i've been focusing on learning about all other areas (body, interior, exterior, etc). I basically tore the whole bus apart, restoring or replacing almost everything, and will be assembling it back once paint is done.

Someone asked for more pics, hope this helps:
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like early Bus rear drums machined down to fit. '62 and older drums, they have the swirl face, machined flat. Big lip where it meets outer Beetle backing plate.

Are the studs stepped?
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