Webasto Gas Heater Install

[dobryan]

FWIW my Propex exhaust exits in that same area. Great minds.....
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[newfisher]

I mounted it in my RMW box that secures behind the pass seat which limits the run of pipe to 5m without a muffler or 2m with a muffler. I also have a Westy LP tank mounted under the slider door for my fire pit so I would be running it too close to an lp tank for comfort.

I WANT IT ALL!!!!!

[HoustonPhotog]

Ahh gotcha...
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Abel Longoria
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[newfisher]

Comprimise on the exahust outlet. Its a shorter run, less than recomended 270 degree bendsand pointed away crom the lp, gas tank and slider door seal. Pics of other stuff routed.

[davevickery]

I got it all installed at least enough for preliminary run and test. I'll have to cut holes in the cabinet, and mount the controller. It looks like a lot of parts when you lay everything out.

I trial fit it, drilled a small pilot hole and had to move it back away from the seat base about an inch from where I was originally thinking so the holes would line up better in the ribs below the van.

I don't know if it matters, but this way the exhaust and intake holes are centered on that rib. The intake pipe does has a slit in it, so I slide the fuel pump wires up into and before putting the intake hose on. I didn't need to use the long fuel pump wires they give you, because my pump is so close to the intake.

I like where I mounted the fuel pump but I am breaking a rule that the fuel line can't have any high spots in it to keep air bubbles from gathering in the line. But I'd have to move the pump. But I also haven't installed the little filter yet. I put a tube over the exposed fuel line but It should be a little longer and I probably should tie the fuel line tight against the frame rail.

I am currently getting gas from the fuel return line in the engine bay. I'm curious if there will be any problems doing that. It sure was easy to prime the gas line, just cycle the fuel pump a few times.

The Westy flooring is too thick for the bolts and the exhaust/intake stubs to stick down far enough. So I had to cut out a 4"x5" of the plywood flooring under the heater so everything would reach. They make a 90 degree mounting bracket that you could use and mount the heater on its side, but I think it is better to do it this way if possible.

I needed extra brackets to hold the exhaust/intake so I bought a 4 pack of electrical conduit brackets. And I used stainless screws to secure them to the frame That took a while getting the holes just the right size so the screws would not snap off because the metal is fairly thick. In hindsight maybe I should have tapped the holes and used bolts.

I may do something different with the exhaust. I would like a small stub that angles down at the end to keep any water out crossing streams.

I like the where the intake is. I broke another rule with that intake though. Both the intake and exhaust are supposed to slope downward so they can drain. My exhaust is level and my intake has a low spot in front near the heater. They say drill a small drain hole at any low spots if you have to do that.

[davevickery]

I got my heater hooked up and tested it for a half hour. At first I forgot to put in the fuses and thought I had a problem. It uses a 15 Amp and a 1 Amp fuse. I guessed which one went where based on the wire sizes.

It is pretty quiet. The exhaust with the muffler is not noisy at all. You have to put your ear down by the ground to hear it. I doubt anyone camping near you would be bothered by it if they could even hear it.

The air flow is less than I thought it might be. As a comparison, it moves less air than an Atwood Hydroflame but I think it will be plenty for the van.

With the dial set on low (but not turned all the way down), it cycled off when the van got to around 50 degrees. The fan stays running on low even after the burner goes out. It is nice that the burner goes out when it cycles down. I was worried it would put out too much heat, but that won't be a problem.

I'm guessing it will use more battery power each time it needs to restart, but that is better than having it run on low all the time. In startup mode the fan runs faster and it is a bit louder than when just running on low. I'm curious if it will do that each time it cycles back on. Otherwise, on low you can't even hear it running, you have to put a hand in front of the vent to check.

The divider in the box just lifts out. Above it, I have a little extra space for misc items or dry food and I can use the box as a foot rest. I still plan to make a cushion that goes over the top. I think you could mount the heater without any cabinet or come up something simpler. They make sheet metal boxes that just fit over the case.

The controller is on the box which is not as convenient as right next to the bed, but it is tidy. I also connected power from the starting battery since it is right there. The vent in the front is the intake, there is a 4" hole on the side facing the sink for the warm air outlet.

I'll post a more complete review after I have had a chance to use it a while.

[vanis13]

[davevickery]

OK, I'd like to post some initial impressions so I can correct a couple things I said earlier. I'd also like to hear other's subjective experience of the noise level, however you would describe it.

The super quiet fan speed is only when the burner is off. I'd call it a kind of idle mode and you really can't hear it, but that might be worse, because as the heater cycles back on, the fan noise ramps up. Then 10 minutes or so later, it will slowly ramp down as it cycles off. Maybe it is better that it ramps up and down rather than just comes on, but when you are just sitting there in the van listening intently to the fan noise, it seems a bit loud. [edit] one thing that helps is to set the temp so the heater stays running so the fan noise is more constant and more of a white noise. I don't think it will be any problem to sleep with it that way.

Also that fuel pump location inside the frame is going to need some work. When the heater cycles on, the first thing you hear is the ticking of the fuel pump as it reverberates off the frame. I think more rubber mounts and maybe a full rubber cover over the pump will quiet it down, but I can hear it from inside the van more than from the outside as it is right now. The ticking starts when the fan is in idle mode, so it is very distinct, then as the fan revs up the ticking goes into the background. I wrapped some rubber hose over the fuel pump and rubber mount and it quieted the ticking.

I don't know how this compares to the propex, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is similar. I was hoping this bigger unit would be quieter somehow since it has more power, but now I doubt it. The noise itself is sleepable, but it is the cycling that might wake me up. As it goes through the startup sequence the fan revs up to at least medium speed. There are 3 settings on the controller, one is called ECO, normal and boost but they don't affect the fan speed when it isn't demanding a lot of heat.

I am wondering if longer ducting runs (mine doesn't have any ducting) would help muffle the fan noise. The little cabinet quiets it down but most of the noise I hear is coming out the hot air vent. I previously had an Atwood with a large squirrel cage type fan that was either on or off, and I can't say if this is quieter or louder than that, but I was able to sleep through its cycling. Another thought that in real use, I would be turning the heater way down before going to bed, so hopefully I will be fast asleep before it starts cycling [edit] The noise level is partly due to my lack of ducting. I put a dryer vent over the heater output as a test and it was noticably quieter. So I think installation is the key to making these as quiet as possible.


I also wanted to mention the fuel tee location on the return fuel line. This was suggested by Mark Drillock and seems to be working great. I was worried the return line might be pressurized while the van is running and affect the heater but it doesn't seem to. And I was wondering if it would be able to get fuel if the van's fuel pump isn't running, but it seems to do just fine. Edit: I noticed the engine stumbled when I first started it after running the heater for 45 minutes to melt snow off the van. The heater must have pulled enough gas out of the engine lines to cause that. After cycling the key, a couple times it was fine. So it isn't a problem, just something to be aware of if you tap into the gas return gas line.

It was so much easier to tee in here than to cut that big thick hose under the syncro gas tank. On 2wd it isn't bad but it is hard to reach on a syncro. Plus the return hose is the same size as the tee that comes in the install kit. This is a subaru return hose, I'm not sure about the stock 2.1 hose.

And finally I added a short tip to the end of my exhaust. It wasn't necessary but it looks finished now and less water can accidentally get into the muffler this way. I have a CO detector with a digital display in the van and there's no indication that anything is getting into the van with the muffler here.

I started another topic to discuss just the battery draw of the heater as it is higher than I expected. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=642736 Possibly battery usage is another reason to consider the smaller unit

[newfisher]

Hi Dave,

Good to hear yours is up and running. I have seemed to overcome the challenges with mine and (fingers crossed) the thing works better than expected. Mine is mounted in the same spot, but I used the Webasto elbow that is 3" then a 90degree bend then 6" with a bulkhead fitting from Webasto that has grilles and rotates. Maybe the bend, additional length and grated vent knocks the sharpness from the fan sound? I agree on start up during the fire sequence it gradually gets louder until desired temp is reached but afterwards you really have to pay attention to it to notice the fan. Just a mellow droan is all I get inside. The muffler really helps outside too. I have a much shorter run and have it pointed towards the ground at a 45 towards the side to get the fumes / condensation etc out from under the van. I doubt there would ever be any traceable fumes inside the van with it the way you have it, they really dont seem to put off alot of exhaust. Much less than a lawnmower or small combustable engine.

Got the syncro part today--whoop whoop. Following your 2x syncro footsteps. Resisting an all out syncro van , too many other 4xs in the fleet.

[davevickery]

According to this post, here are the instructions for manually adjusting the Webasto ST2000 for high altitude.

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13060
"OK Folks, just got off of the phone with Webasto tech support. The Air Top 2000 ST can be manually adjusted for high altitude by the end user. It involves reducing the fuel supply as well, but does not need any other parts. It will keep your combustion chamber from coking up at low oxygen/high altitude levels and will also make for easier starting at high altitudes.

According to Webasto tech support here is the procedure:
At the bottom of the heater there is a pigtail of 2 wires, one brown and one green, that they use for programming the system.
1: Connect the brown wire to ground.
2: Turn the heater control knob to 12:00
3: After a few moments, the LED on the heater control knob will begin to flash.
4: Turn the heater control knob to 9:00 (or even 8:00 if you are at very high altitude)
5: Keep the heater running with the control knob set to 9:00 for 3 minutes.
6: While the heater is running, remove the brown wire from ground.

Now the fuel pump should be set to deliver less fuel, thereby creating a better combustion mixture for high altitude and less oxygen.

The tech said you can change it back when at sea level, but also said it was unnecessary, as the reduced fuel will not cause damage at sea level, just a lower heat output by 100-200 BTU/ hour at the maximum setting. He said that running it lean at sea level will also help to keep the combustion chamber clean."

[davevickery]

I wanted to post this update after my intial install.

My intake ends right there in that clump of ice. It looks like my exhaust is in a decent location, but I'll have to move the intake.

I used my heater fore the first time on a a 2 day camping trip. I ran it on high elevation mode the first night and on regular the next. I was at around 7500 feet the 2nd night and the heater seemed fine with it. I probably won't do that again especially since it has an altitude setting, but I wanted to see how sensitive it would be and if it would trigger a fault.

Another thing I learned about Webasto units. The 3900 has a minimum heat output of 5800 BTUs. That is a lot and the heater will go into standby mode if it doesn't need that much to maintain the temp. Ideally, I'd rather increase the temp, or even open a window a bit so it stays running continously.

It is loud sleeping with it when the fan runs normally, but when it has to relight the glow plug it revs up a bit more and it wakes me up. I got more used to it on the second night and slept with my head towards the rear of the van. I still need to add a warm air vent, and will probably rig up a temporary duct that allows me to direct the heat, but it should also quiet it down.

One thing I just read on line is the Webasto marine units when they go into idle mode, they shut down completely. This is useful for boat owners to set the thermostat on low and leave it all winter so it doesn't freeze but isn't using any power except when running. I also read that if yu add an external temperature sensor the non-marine units will do the same thing. That will save me some battery power in certain circumstances, like turning the heater way down while out sking for the day or if I want to set it to very low before going to bed.

I can run the heater for 18 hours before I start to worry about the batteries. I would not be comfortable running the heater continuously for a 2 day ski trip, but it might just make it with my 2 group 41 batteries. Maybe I'll try it once just to find out.

[davevickery]

Here is a final review after using the heater on a 10 day trip.

Overall, I am not that thrilled. I am being kinda picky and it does have some great benefits but considering the cost, it should have no negatives. The biggest problem for me is the noise level. Part of the problem is the way I have it installed. I think if I tucked it into a cabinet it would be quieter and I may have to move it. Putting a hot air duct on the outlet helps a little as does sleeping with head as far away from heater as possible. I am using a temporary flexible plastic down spout which lets me direct the heat. A double layer duct of some sort would help more. The way I mounted it in the little stand-alone cabinet turned out to be a mistake. It isn't any better than if the heater was just mounted by itself behind the seat. The front intake vents are very open and let noise out. And the hot air outlet has no ducting in the cabinet as it was sized to just fit the heater. Knowing now how noisy it is, I think I could install it differently to muffle a lot of the fan noise.

If the intake could be in an enclosed cabinet that pulls air from inside the cabinet but is open enough that you don't need to add additional intake vents to the cabinet, I think it would significantly reduce the noise from that end of the heater. You can't put it somewhere where you will be piling clothes on top of it and blocking the air flow, but ducting the intake would be better than nothing. Obviously, just mounting the heater behind the seat without any ducting or storage box would be the worst as far as noise level.

Also with a dusty hairy dog, it would be better for the heater to be inside a cabinet. I already see lots of dirt collecting near the intake. I still don't know where I would put it though.

I also should have put the thermostat within arms reach while in bed. It was stupid to put it out of reach. It didn't seem like it would be a big deal but it is. Within arms reach, you could flip it off/on while still half asleep. It is nice to shut it off if it gets too hot, or if you can't sleep over the fan noise, then in a few hours flip it back on and go back to sleep. I'll definitely have to move it.

I also wish I had made the exhaust come out opposite the sliding door. Opening the slider even just to let the dog in/out pulls the exhaust into the van. Maybe I can extend the exhaust out the rear, or bring it over to the other side, but the frame rails are in the way. With the exhaust pipe right under the slider area, it lets exhaust into the van if I leave the door open for a few minutes or if I hang a blanket over the door so the dog can come and go. There is a limit of 2 meters of length if you use a muffler, but that should be enough length to move it to a better spot. I think the exhaust on a gas heater is dirtier/smellier than a propane heater so it is probably more important with this type of heater.

Pulling gas from the return line works ok. I have just had to get used to cycling the key to prime the fuel line in the morning. But if I had to do it again, I think I would probably just tap into the fuel line.

Battery power seems to be about the same whether it runs continuously or cycles on/off all night. When it is cycling isn't as efficient so it doesn't save any power compared to just running on low the whole time. You can manually shut the heater off until you wake up cold and restart it will save battery power and gas and not have to hear it run. The 3900 model puts out too much heat on low to need to run all the time. It heats up quick but once up to temp, low is too much to just maintain the temp unless it is really cold or I have the temp turned up higher than I need. But if I have it running, I want it running while I'm sleeping I want it running continously not cycling on and off which is noisier.

I have 2 normal starting batteries under the front seats and a switch that lets me leave them connected if I want. That is handy. I can easily run a full day (15 hrs from 6pm until 9am) and it will only run both batteries down to about 12.4 volts. That is better for the batteries than running one down to 12.1. I can run off just one battery if I am worried about draining my starting battery too much. I tried that once and switched to just the house battery before going to bed. This setup seems like enough power for the way I camp. If I add a 12V fridge and run then both, I might have to make some changes or more likely I would just shut the fridge off at night and turn the heater down. I use a plug in voltmeter that I can plug into a house socket or the front dash socket to keep an eye on either battery.

A lot of the things to look out for on the install apply to the the other heaters but this particular model is not a great choice for a vanagon. It is too big and the lowest heat setting is too high for most situations. The way they designed these with the automatic fan is annoying. It would be better if you could just set it where you want it. It doesn't react to changes immediately, it goes through it's routine, even if it is cycling down and you turn the heat up, it will continue cycling down, finish that, then start restart/cycle up.

It is impossible to think of everything in advance. There are so many little things you would never imagine, like where to point the vents. The hot dry air pointed right at you makes you thirsty and I kept waking up to get a drink of water. Pointing the heat away worked better. But the heat doesn't get to the rear of the van very easily, and you get hot and cold spots. I'm toying with the idea of mounting the heater in the bottom of the clothes closet with outlets pointing in two directions but I want to think everything through before I cut new holes.

Some of the things I am not happy about with this heater I don't think would apply to the 2000 BTU models or the Espar B4. If I was going to do it over I'm still not sure what heater I would go with.

Hope this helps someone.
Dave

[syncrodoka]

Thanks for the honest review of your install, it will help my install when I ever get around to it.

[newfisher]

You mentioned mounting it in a cabinet and drawing air from within. This is what I did. You can see the poor fitment of the RMW cabinet to the B pillar. From inside looking out, it seems like a large gap. Looking from outside at the closed cabinet you dont see the gap. Heater is very quiet. Rotating the vent fins up and at a 45 works best to distribute heat. Mounting the switch at my hip while laying on the bed was a good choise too as you mentioned yours out of reach. Im not smart, just lazy and didnt want to get up to adjust it lol. I had some electrical harness and controller issues that took several days to sort out, but now its a rock star and cant imagine another rig without one. I just ordered a 24v gas model from Scott at Expidition Imports for my Pinzgauer.

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Play around with your exhaust routing and position of the outlet. Straight down or pointed over towards the drivers side works good. I also ran my intake forward throught the 2 braces and up over the steering rack. Its pointed down, has a p trap bend and a hole drilled at the lowest point for moisture to escape. Ive sourced a large ammo can to mount the 24v Pinz heater into and looking forward to some creative install ideas within that rig.....and some locked up , chained up, portal axle 33s snow camping

[HoustonPhotog]

Nice you got the adjustment for high elevations to work? I didn't have any luck adjusting mine when I camped at 7500 ft. Ran it normal and it coded out after awhile. Ya have to be careful not to run it too long at high elevations in normal mode. The burner can get all sooted up and keep the heater from working properly at any elevation.
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Abel Longoria
VanAlert App for Vanagons/Buses | Texas Vanagons | My Vanagon Build Thread | Follow Me On Instagram | Vanagon-centric Stickers Available Now

[davevickery]

[davevickery]

I won't call it a complete failure, but I pulled my heater out of the van and am moving it under the seat. It was just too noisy behind the passenger seat for me.

So I had to rethink all the other possible spots; inside the rear cabinet, inside the the little cubby hole cabinet, under the sink, or under the seat by the slider or under the seat where the old heater was.

The underseat location should be the quietest, particularly with my head toward the rear. And that location lets me run more ducting which quiets the fan noise. The intake will just pull in air from around the heater so that should help too. I drilled a 3 1/2" hole in the side of the seat base so it won't get obstructed.

This corner of the rear seat has nice access under the van.
The exhaust is the only issue with this location as it needs to be routed away from the sliding door otherwise exhaust gets pulled in every time you open the door. There is extra stuff in the way to route it over to the driver side but there is a hole in the frame that you can see in this pic.

I need to drill a matching hole so I can run the exhaust tube through there and out to the back by the tail pipe.

[owokie]

I have mine mounted in the same location and exhaust is a nonissue, even with the door open for a minute or two. You might try it this way before you go through the trouble. The intake also matches that small stock hole next to the frame rail for an interference fit and prevents entry of large debris. Not that it matters at this point, but there is plenty of air flow without extra holes under the rear seat. How else would the stock rear heater work?

Noise from the unit itself in that location isn't an issue, but I still haven't completely silenced that damn dosing pump. A minor nuisance, but you'd think for the price of these things they'd have come up with a better solution. Still love having it though...

[davevickery]

[owokie]