Help save my Ghia from being totaled! - Ventura CA.

[cutsbythec]

Like most of you on this site I love my VW.... 6 weeks ago it was taken off the road in an accident. The car turned left in front of me, the police report clearly states it was the other drivers fault. My insurance company is trying to say it's a total loss, but they have placed the value of the car around $8,000. In my research and knowledge of the value of my car I know it should be higher. Body shop says damages are $11,500. I have been advised to hire an appraiser, so looking for advise on finding one in Southern California that knows about VWs.
My dad has owned this 1974 Karmann Ghia convertible since 1980. I took ownership of it five years ago, put $3000 into it mechanically, $3000 for a new convertible top 4 years ago, completely restored the interior, largely myself...seats, carpet, dash face and pad, door panels, quarter panels, handles visors etc etc. the paint job still looks good and the chrome parts are good as well. All I really had left to do is re chrome my bumpers. This car is my baby, very sentimental, I learned to drive in her and have poured every bit of extra money into her for the last five years. Not to mention the blood, sweat, and tears to restore her condition, which was pretty good to begin with because my dad took excellent care of her all those years. I know the insurance company doesn't care about that, but I still believe I am not being unreasonable by thinking they should be fixing my car because the value is higher than the damages. Any advice out there for my situation?

[John Moxon]

That's a sad tale but all is not lost. This forum has seen this problem before and I'm sure others who have been through the same will be able to give you valuable help...hold on assistance is on the way.
_________________
John.
Judson Supercharger Information on The Samba
My 1958 Shorrock Supercharged Karmann Ghia
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[EverettB]

This site disagrees
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1974/Volkswagen/Karmann-Ghia/2-Door-Convertible/Values

[theghiagirl]

I'm really sorry about the accident...the most important thing is that you're o.k.

Can you post pictures of the damage so we can get a better idea of what the insurance company is considering a total loss?

Who's your insurance company?

Insurance companies are in the business to take your money...they don't ever want to give it back. So, the first quote they're going to give you is always way too low.

Don't accept the $8,000. Ask them how they came up with the $8,000 amount. According to Hagerty, a 1974 convertible in #4 condition is worth $9,700, #3 $14,800, #2 $22,000, #1 $38,300. Here's the link: https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vbe=3862

NADA is another source: http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1974/Volkswagen/Karmann-Ghia/2-Door-Convertible/Values
The average retail here is $15,900.

Ebay is another source.

I don't think you have to hire an appraiser. I don't believe you even need any type of certification to qualify as an appraiser, so anyone can do an appraisal. You can do this yourself...you just need to be persistent and not back down to them with their lowball offers. If I were you, I would send them the links to Hagerty and NADA and show them that you've done your homework. It would also help if you have detailed pictures of the car before the accident.

[jpjohns]

Yes...fight them. The insurance company's job is to pay as little as possible. You could have been driving a Porsche and they would have said it was undervalued.

Do not let them win.
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-Jared

"Scrapyards are for quitters" - Beetlenut (a Samba member)

[iowegian]

Gee, it sure is too bad about all of those aches and pains that you are suffering. You know-----the ones that didn't show up right away after the accident (wink wink)

[akear]

Follow theGhiaGirl's advice. You just need to show that your car is worth more than the $11,500 cost to fix, and both the Hagerty and NADA value guides show that. Provide that to your adjuster and hopefully that might be all you need to do. Pull Ebay sales too. Under "advanced search" you can see completed sales. Copy pages for all the Ghia convertibles that sold for more than $11.5k. If all that fails and you do need an appraiser, many on this site have recommended Rhonda Madden. She is in the Bay area but will travel. I've been thinking of contacting her to do an appraisal on mine. If we contacted her to do both we could share on travel time and costs. Good luck and I'm very sorry about the accident.

Rhonda Madden
Creative Automotive Consultants
www.creative-automotive.com
707.794.0094

[22manybugs]

X2 follow what TheGhiaGirl said. Also use the listings here on The Samba for comparison, make sure you are using listings for similar condition cars. From the photos, your car looks to be in very good shape and its a convertible, so you want to compare the good convertibles only. I think he is lumping coupes and verts together, or maybe looking at coupes alone. Come up with your own comparisons, and ask for his details that he's using for his estimates.

Include copies of all your receipts as part of your justification. Write down all the work you've done yourself. A new top 4 years ago and new interior along with material receipts doesn't necessarily make the car worth more dollar-for-dollar, but it supports your claim that the car is worth more than average.

I was rear ended in my Ghia about 5 years ago. It's a vert in very good condition. I expected a big argument and collected all the data to argue with the adjuster (oops, I mean "support my position"), the adjuster showed up and said the car was obviously in great condition, he estimated the value between $15-$18k, and the insurance paid the repairs (about $8500) with no argument. So it is possible to have a good outcome. FWIW, there's one data point: my insurance estimated the value of a 1969 Ghia Vert in very good condition at $15-$18k five years ago. It was and is a daily driver, so that wasn't an estimate for some show-quality car.

One other thing to keep in mind: if the insurance totals your car, if you can't find a replacement of equal condition, you can ask them to find you a car and they are obligated to help you. That was in the disclosure info the insurance sent me, check your disclosure info for the same statement. It might help to say you want them to find an equivalent replacement because you've already looked and can't find one. Make them show you one right now. Probably you can point out why it is not equivalent because it has problems your car doesn't have. These cars are hard to find in good condition, the insurance probably doesn't want to spend months searching for one. If he sees that it's not so aesy to find, that might help him to adjust his valuation. I didn't actually try that and recommend that only be a last step since you don't really want a different car (so might not want to start that discussion), you want your car fixed.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he was comparing coupes prices. Make him show the cars he is using for comps.

Sorry you have to go through this, I'm glad you're okay. I hope this helps.
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Lon

1969 Karmann Ghia convertible
1971 Westfalia camper

[cutsbythec]

Thank you everyone so much for your kind words and advice, it means so much to me. I wasn't sure anyone would even read my post, so thank you!

I have AAA insurance, at fault driver has Farmers. I decided to go through my insurance company thinking they would be on my side and fight for me. After their initial total loss settlement offer, I sent in at least 25 comparable vehicles in the $15,000 range along with receipts for every single thing I've done....they raised the value $200 from what they originally said. They told me they do not consider Haggerty or nada guidelines....I'm at a loss. I would understand having to fight if it was my fault, or if I was trying to say my car was worth an exorbitant amount, but I'm not. I just want what's fair and I'm going crazy that it's been six weeks and she's just sitting there untouched!

Also, I WAS injured in the accident, have major whiplash neck/back pain, which I am being treated for. I will fight as long as it takes, but being in pain, losing sleep and having Dr appointments and phone calls taking up a lot of my time has really changed my normal life, which I loved. Also, Farmers will not pay up front for a rental car for me, so there's that. I know a lot of people have been in this type of situation, and it's just wrong.

Most of the damage is to the front end, here's a pic after the accident, not the greatest because it was getting dark out, but you can see that most of the damage is to the front end ...

[lonotch]

I am in the same situation as you except my VW wasn't totaled luckily it was my DD truck, I have AAA and the guy who hit me had Farmers, first word of advice is to lawyer up for the injuries only you should be able to deal with the car by yourself and keep a daily diary of your pain, it will help out a lot.

Get a copy of the police report! It will tell you want you need to fight the insurance company and ask for a break down on the cost of you Ghia from the insurer. I got a lot more for my truck then I thought I would but after the breakdown I was able to squeeze a few more bucks from farmers. If you really feel you are not at fault at all then get the rental car now, you will be reimbursed later, I did without a problem.

On a funny note after my accident when I was out of work from my back injuries and couldn't move at all without being in pain when I watched TV it seemed that half of the commercials I saw were State Farm ones and it pissed me off thinking about how much money they were spending but leaving me to hang out and dry.

On another note the other thing that pissed me off with farmers is once they give you a amount they will give you for the car you only have 7 more days of the rental car but they take more then a week to send you the check and your bank puts a hold on it for about 2 weeks and that starts on the day they first give you a amount on the car even if you negotiate for more money later, thank god I had enough money laying around to buy something while I had to wait for the check to clear and since I wasn't working I only needed a car for the doctors appointments with a back up car.
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It's not about the window, it's about the people.

German Folks

[SirNickity]

I don't know how to help, but I ache for you. My SO and I went through an ordeal a few years ago. Just a normal everyday car, not anything with particular personal value.

She had opted for a less-expensive insurance company, and the difference between them and my insurance co (State Farm) was staggering. They could not have cared less. In these situations, you need an advocate.

I hope in some small way it helps to have a community of enthusiasts sending you our best wishes.

I have no idea if this is a reasonable tactic, but you could ask them what would constitute proof of higher value. Let them pick the source instead of trying to find one they consider as a valid reference.
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1970 KG Coupe
1974 KG Convertible (EV conversion underway)

[61 BUS]

[akear]

^^Agree, at this point you probably should talk with an attorney. In California with a standard policy you are covered for fair market value of your Ghia, which you have demonstrated with your 25 comps and the Haggerty and Nada guides. How can they say they will not consider that? What are they using to establish fair market value is only $8200? I am so sorry you are going through this on top of dealing with your injuries and pain. Its not fair but that's why we have attorneys to take care of these things for us.

[danielsan]

x3

I *really* don't mean to pile on but this might help others in similar situations in the future. Going through your own insurance when the other person is a fault is a mistake -- 'your' insurance can and will act in your best interest when trying to persuade the other guy to pay; once you try an make your insurance pay -- especially to pay out more more money than they can ever hope to get back from you -- 'your' insurance is no longer yours. They are looking out for their interests and not yours.

Try this -- call you bar, ask for a specialist in insurance claims. The bar will give you a number and should send you a letter for a free 1/2 hour consultation. A decent attorney should be able to review the matter and tell you if you have a chance. I'd especially ask if you can still go after Farmer's.

good luck

[didget69]

What type of policy/coverage do you have on the Ghia?

Liability only?
Replacement value?
Agreed Value?

This will make a difference in how they are willing to settle. And the Insurer doesn't have to help find a 'like-replacement' vehicle unless you paid for that coverage feature - I know from experience...

Good Luck & I'd strongly encourage you to take this matter to the other Driver's insurance company -

bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[Andre@KGPR/Airhead]

Oh no! I see you around town all the time!

Glad you're ok, that's #1

Scott (the owner here) can help you determine a value, since you're close enough for him to see the car. You can call me at the shop during the day & I'll get you guys in touch with one another. (805) 650-2045

[mfitzsimor]

I was rear ended about 10 years ago. The other insurance company (The Hartford) declared my car a total loss and offered a settlement supported by their appraisers report and For-Sale ads for what they determined were three comparable ghias.

I politely refused it, detailed what I felt their appraiser had not taken into consideration in his report, and supported what I felt was a fair claim based on For Sale ads for a half dozen or so comparable ghias.

We negotiated back and forth a bit before they settled on what I decided was a fair evaluation. I bought my car back from them for a "salvage" price and repaired it just sufficiently enough to sell. Ironically, I also purchased one of the cars they used to under-value mine and I'm still driving it today!

Be firm and persistent - the other company will want to settle fast and the longer you can afford to drag out the process, the better. If you can't get a "total loss" value above your repair estimate; get what you can, then buy it back for salvage. You then slowly work on getting it repaired on your schedule and possibly even find a lower estimate.
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portland, or
69 cypress green ghia coupe
82 vanagon TD
86 quantum syncro

[22manybugs]

I hope you feel better soon, take care of yourself foremost, that's the most important thing.

I think if you had tried to go through Farmer's, they would have told you to go to your insurance. Usually your insurance pays, then gets the money from the other insurance company. That's assuming you have comp/collision insurance. You would want to do that anyways, your insurance is dealing with their own customer so they should treat you better. Imaging dealing with the other insurance - you're not their customer, so you'd really have no chance of getting them to do right. If you don't have comp/collision, then your insurance would make you go directly to the other insurance.

It's hard to believe AAA is treating you like that, they are not a second- or third-rate insurance and are supposed to be reputable. I was going to get a quote from them, I guess not.

Are they refusing to give you their analysis of the car's value? I've never heard of that, that's unacceptable, insist that they send it to you. Maybe they are seeing something that reduces the value, but they have to explain it. It seems like they are saying "we don't use Hagerty, we don't use NADA, we don't use for-sale prices in the marketplace, we say it's worth $X just because we think it's worth $X". No way.

I would try escalating within AAA first. Ask the adjuster for his supervisor's name and call the supervisor. If you don't get an acceptable response, escalate again. I've had to escalate three or four levels dealing with insurance people before. You have to get pushy. Find out if AAA has an ombudsman (someone to help customers deal with problems) and call the ombudsman. Write down everything including phone conversations so you have a record.

If that doesn't work, then you should go to a lawyer. Maybe just a letter from a lawyer will get them to be more reasonable. The lawyer should be the last step because now you have to spend your own money on the lawyer just to get the insurance to treat you like they should have from the beginning, but sometimes it's necessary.

One thing you might try is calling a newspaper. Talk to the editor's desk. I know the LA Times LOVES writing stories about insurance companies mistreating customers, and the insurance company usually changes their attitude once a reporter calls. I don't know how many cases they can look at, but it just takes a little time to call. Is there a local paper in Ventura that writes similar articles?

I'm sorry you have to go through this. Let us know how things are going, and keep posting any questions.
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Lon

1969 Karmann Ghia convertible
1971 Westfalia camper

[John Moxon]

OK it's heartening to see all the support you have from the Karmann Ghia Community. However, although there is a lot of very good advice it can all be a little overwhelming to filter what actually needs to be done.

First thing I would do is to let AAA know that you reject their valuation which you consider to be derisory and not supportive of a paying customer who has come to expect better.

You have the offer of an expert valuation from one of (if not the most) authoritative voices in the "Karmann Ghia World", Scott Dempster of KGPR. It would be unbelievable to decline the offer.

I would also point out and provide the link to this topic as the Karmann Ghia Community are watching and thousands will form a lasting opinion of AAA Insurance on the outcome.
_________________
John.
Judson Supercharger Information on The Samba
My 1958 Shorrock Supercharged Karmann Ghia
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[cutsbythec]

Once again, I am blown away by all of the advice and support....I finally feel taken care of! I am so grateful to this community, a big thank you to each of you

I will most definitely take the offer to have Scott look at my car, just put the call in. Hopefully that will be my last step, I knew on day one that there was no other option than having her repaired, just wish it wasn't needlessly made into such a long, frustrating and draining process. Wish me luck! Updates to come...