Micros or Type 1 Stub Axles?

fastbacker · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: Micros or Type 1 Stub Axles?

So I just picked up a used sandrail frame that was never finished. This will be the first one I've built although I have a pretty decent vw and porsche understanding. I have an engine and trans from my road racing days when money was good...1997 3.6 911 engine and porsche 915 trans(8:31) with lsd and close ratio gears. I also just purchased a 6" wider beam and 2.5x.75 arms here on the samba. And lastly, I have a type 1 irs torsion housing. For the rear, I'm thinking 4x5's and of course coilovers. The question is, can I get by with type 1 stubs and 930 cv joints? I don't want to spend money on the micro stubs or midboards unless I really need them. Also unsure of what's out there for type 1 930 stubs...any really strong ones?

I want to build this to take down to Pismo and learn to drive the dunes.

Thanks-
Craig

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

fastbacker · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:41 am Post subject:

...and btw, the engine is stock with 285 horsepower.

SamT · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:57 am Post subject:

You dont need micro stubs, they are always an option though. Ive been running some empi chromealloy VW stub axles for 10+ years with no issues. Origionally putting 150 hp through them, up to 300 for the last couple years. Im not sure what the big V8 buggys use.

If you have fab skills the best thing i ever did was loose that torsion housing and build my own trailing arms. 5 link would be better, but i dont like the body roll.

I believe i have a set of porsche trailing arms with some sort of micro stub if your going to roll your own arms.

fastbacker · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:32 pm Post subject:

Nice work!

So I'm wondering where/when the weakness of the type 1 stub comes into play. Is it high horsepower or high jumping?

SamT · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:32 pm Post subject:

I think you will break the 930 first. Ive broke alot of cv's and transmissions and a few drive axles, but never a stub.

Jumping wont hurt anything unless you bottom it out. Bottoming out will kill a car.

KrAzY-BaJa · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject:

bearings and stub will be the T1 weak links
_________________
70% of what you buy is something to start with.
ForYotaWagen: A Ford/Toyota/Volkswagen http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4871576&highlight=#4871576

KrAzY-BaJa · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject:

bearings and stub will be the T1 weak links
_________________
70% of what you buy is something to start with.
ForYotaWagen: A Ford/Toyota/Volkswagen http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4871576&highlight=#4871576

jsturtlebuggy · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject:

If building from scratch using a Micro stub setup would be a better way to go then using a VW stub axle setup.
The aftermarket Empi stub axles for using 930 CV joints have a breaking problem that Empi does not care to address at this time.

The micro stub is basically a Chevy S-10 4x4 front hub and a special made short stub axle for use of 930 CV joints. Also they have stub axle for 935 CV joints.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

fastbacker · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:54 pm Post subject:

So will that empi stub break w 285 hp? I've been doing a bunch of research on the micro stub brake parts and kits. Don't really want to spend $1500+ and don't think I need that level kit but not sure. Anyone know what Blind Chicken used in their $750 kit?

jsturtlebuggy · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject:

The Empi stub axles have had some serious issues with breakages and Empi seems to not care that it is happening. I know of several that have just broken on the pavement. They have been tested by a place (not by Empi) that can test parts for failure rating. One broke on their machine with less torque output by a 1600cc VW engine.
The stock VW stub axle can be modified to use Porsche 930 type CV joints 108mm or the 100mm Bus type CV.
If using a type II, type IV, type 181(Thing), or Porsche 924, 944 CV joint you can use Stub axles from a Thing or Porsche 924, 944.
The stock Bug, Thing and Porsche stub axles will bend before they break. It very hard to break one.
There also a set up that uses the type II (Bus) stub axle and bearings. With the use of the 1972 and later 112mm bolt pattern flange you can use Mercedes disc brake. Adapters are available from the 112mm 5bolt to the 205mm wide 5 VW pattern.
Can you do your own fabrication?
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

fastbacker · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:02 pm Post subject:

So does someone make an arm to accept those type II bearings or do they fit into type I bearing housings?

fastbacker · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject:

....oh, and yeah...I can do basic fabrication and my buddy can do what I can't.

jsturtlebuggy · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:02 am Post subject:

Todd Francis who owns Avery's Air Cooled and also makes the TF-1 engine case was selling trailing arms that use the type II bearings and stub axles.
http://www.averysaircooled.com/
I not seeing them on the website now, contact them and see if they still have them.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

under construction · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject:

I vote micros. I like ur engine choice. 😉

fastbacker · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject:

fastbacker · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:33 pm Post subject:

jsturtlebuggy · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:16 pm Post subject:

Torque, more than horsepower is what tends to break things.
If you plan on using type II/IV size CV joints there are chromoly cages available. The type II CV uses larger diameter balls then the type IV.

This site has a lot of information on CVs and axles. Plus as information on building your own trailing arms. http://blindchickenracing.com/

The Empi 930 CV joints I am using are holding up to my Subaru 2.5L engine.
They also have CV joints and parts for the type II size.

Also using aftermarket axles without a inner stop on them helps makes CVs live longer in long travel setups. SwayAway and Empi have axles. Both twist and take a set. So you never want to reverse them.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

fastbacker · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:36 am Post subject:

Yeah I searched high and low for the type 2/4 cv joint hp/tq limits. I'm sure most would say I need 930 cv's with this engine but I feel it's borderline. It'd just be nice to save the $800 on 930 drive flanges if I could get by with the empi off road type 2 cv's. Could use the savings on a bunch of spare type 2 axles.

SamT · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:03 am Post subject:

The Cv's HP rating is on a curve. The further from straight they are the weaker they get. Ive seen drag bugs with 200HP running slicks use stock t1 joints. But you put those joints at 10* and they would shred at the track.

I run my empi race prep type2 joints. They do every bit of the advertised 24*. I set my suspension up so they are at their max. I hear one click now and then even when im unloaded and maybe have a limit strap that is stretched (i set it up using some straps i got from a jeep place and when i swaped to empi ones from a buggy place they stretch more i guess) I break a CV joint now and then though. Its alot better than shredding the trans! $80 vs $800 Back when i had normal Vw suspension with low angles on the same CVs i never broke one, but i broke lots of gears in the trans. (Weddle gears in 002) i can honestly say I have never broke a CV during normal duning or even a sand drag. Its alway when i screw up or have had even just 3-4 cold ones. Last one I snaped was riding a wheelie down the sand drag trying to change from 2 to 3 with out the front coming down and 2 300lb guys onboard. (BOV definetly does its Job)
If I had a porsche trans I would want the CV to be the weak link.

They key to not breaking stubs is to not bottom the car out. You should never bottom out, when you do its abuse, a mistake, or failure to tune suspension.

What does the porsche engine weigh?

under construction · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:11 am Post subject:

motor mount pic... As far as axles, I went Micro because I heard I could get more travel with the same degree CV angle. Motor weight, Travel, type of driving, arm size and better bearings were all apart of my decision to go micro. Strength was a concern however I have seen some serious power put to type 1s on the street with out failure. I'm sure you'll achieve what you want without breaking the bank but Please stay away from empi axles for your own safety and piece of mind.
Porsche/rail combo. There are a ton of people that will tell you it's to expensive or it shouldn't be done or you could do it cheaper with a suby... Dont Listen to them. Be Creative, Take Chances, Be Different. I'm no expert by far but I might be able to help you thru some of the hurdles that I had to over come. PM me anytime and I'll do my best to help. Good Luck and I will follow this build Twisted Evil


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

	Forum Index -> HBB Off-Road	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time Page: 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2