Just gotta be sure

[L8ndeb]

Hello All,

I am just about ready to start welding the chassis back together. For those of you that have not followed this repair, please see "Need Advice on a Frustrating build" on this site, and/or "Fix Before Somebody gets Killed" on the Manx Club forum.
I have asked this before, but for some reason it is not sinking in. Please look at the pic.


[img]

Buggy Pic 2 by l8ndeb, on Flickr[/img]

My question is, does this look like all of yours before you did the re-working of the tunnel shape? As you can see, I have a zero bubble (level), and the front half of the chassis is level as well, but there is a good 3/8 - 1/2 gap at the top of the tunnel. The front part of the tunnel is level as well. I have read that at some point, you would have to heat the tunnel, get a 5lb hammer, and go to town. It just looks like a lot of hammering to me. My question is, am I correct to assume this is the way it is suppose to be, and I am ready to heat and hammer? BTW, I do plan on cleaning up the mating edges as it looks like I have about 1/2" to play with.

TIA

[joescoolcustoms]

The tops of both the front and rear section should be in a level plane, and equal height. The bottoms will not even out on the pinch weld, but the bottom of the tunnel will.

I get the sides and top mated/welded before starting the hammer forming. The side should match in width and profile for most of it until you get to the upper corners. I also plate over the weld, (after welding) with left over tunnel metal.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[L8ndeb]

Thanks for the reply Joe. I guess with your reply, it leaves me with another question. If you align the top and sides, obviously that puts the gap at the bottom. I don't see how it would be possible to get the ledges the pans mount on to line up. There is nothing to hammer there. So, if you line up the top and sides, what is the method to line up the pan mounting lips?

Tia

[joescoolcustoms]

The bottoms will not line up. But the tops are supposed to. Use metal to fill in the gaps on the bottom. What I do is eliminate the rear pinch weld section, plate and weld from the inside and out, then create a new pinch weld ledge to make a flat floor with.

_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[L8ndeb]

Ya know guys, being a newby to this, I am trying to get advice/opinions as to the best way to rebuild this thing. As you can see, I have posted looking for the correct way to re-weld the tunnel cut after doing repair and re-measuring. Certainly, it can be a little confusing, hence the thread.
Problem is, I have been told to line up the top and sides of the tunnel and disregard the pan mounting lips, pounding them close after welding. I have been told to line up the bottom of the tunnel and the pan mounting lips, then pound the sides and top of the tunnel after welding. I guess what I am trying to say is, apparently there is not just one way to build these.
I am just looking for the right way, and provides the most stable and straight chassis possible. I am NOT trying to start a thread war, just, as I said, looking to do this right after buying this POS and trying to fix it into a nice buggy.

TIA

[andygere]

I think Joe's tutorial shows a great way to do it. If you do a search on his threads, he's done many of these, and is an excellent buggy fabricator. I'd follow his advice as closely as you can to get a good result. My 2¢.

[jspbtown]

I don't see a thread war. I see Joe giving you top notch advice and people agreeing with him.

[joescoolcustoms]

I apologize if I offended you.

In your picture, the bottom is not on your tunnel, and that can give a false view on what needs to happen.

If you go back to an original un-cut VW pan, (in thought process), the original VW tunnel is the same height front to rear. So, when it is cut for shortening, the top to bottom height is still the same. Also, the top of the original VW tunnel is flat in in a single plane front to rear.

With that in mind, the top of the tunnel pieces need to be in line and level front to rear. When you put the bottom pieces back on, they will be level and in line too. It is just the pinch weld that does not line up along with the top corners of the tunnel due to the tunnel having both a squarish shape right behind the E-Brake and then the rounded shape on the rear section. Those corners are what needs to be hammered into position to make it "conform" into a more flowing shape.

Here are a few more pictures of a more standard pan I shortened on a current buggy I am building that may help.



With this picture you can see the more square in the front part of the cut and the more rounded on the rear of the cut. Also note the levelness of the top of the tunnel. The pans shape did vary through the years, but the concept is basically the same.

Here is what you have now, the cut piece is gone and you can see the bottom of the tunnel is also on the same level with the front bottom.

Here the two pieces are shoved together to get ready and weld. Note that I cut the front of the cut as far forward as possible to help the pinch weld ledge line up better, but this really does not matter other than visual. You still have to have a complete weld all around the tunnel.

Here it is welded. I did have to hammer the corners of the front section to bring them around to mating the rear better.

I also add a strip of flat metal to the out side pan edge to help strength the cut area. Overlapps the cut weld.

I then use a piece of the original tunnel that also had the (seat belt mount) and plate over the tunnel weld to add strength. Note the holes in the plate that get welded too.

I have not yet finished this project to photo the bottom, just been too busy this spring/summer/fall driving my buggy traveling around, but intend to complete the chassis this winter and have this buggy ready for Spring '16.

I hope that may help you some what. Don't give up, you are close to having a pan back together.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[Dale M.]

My builds are done with same concepts as joescoolcustoms chevron shaped cut, "align top and sides", and usually add plate over initial weld area spanning weld by about 2 inches on each side of tunnel weld (as a stiffener) .... I just deal with any bottom gaps by cut, fabricate, fit, weld and span weld with stiffener plate... Go with what joescoolcustoms does, its the only process I have ever seen recommended... Only thing I do not do is the complex step over lap (zig/zag) on tunnel...

Look at joescoolcustoms pictures see the grinder, and welder, and hydraulic press, and the frame table for chassis work, that is his resume...

Biggest thing is use ruler many many times, if pan is not square in all planes your buggy will go down the road crooked and look and handle awful...

You have to remember its a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces missing... Its up to you to make the missing pieces...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[L8ndeb]

Hey Guys, apparently I was taken the wrong way when I posted my last post. When I said I didn't want to start a thread war, it was in reference to some individuals who have emailed me with their advice on how to do this (line up the bottom). I thought they might read this and the war would be on.
Joe, in NO WAY did you offend me. Please understand I WELCOME your advice as it seems you have been doing this awhile, turning out a good product. I VERY MUCH appreciate your posts and pics, makes things more understandable. And you are right, I am VERY close to welding.
I have spent the past week tinkering with closing the gaps and mating the cut surface better on the tunnel cut left by the original builder. I have it pretty good at this point, with only maybe the bottom half inch on both sides of the tunnel. I will probably have to graft some metal in there as the gaps were just to big to overcome.
If I can ask one more question........I have taken off the front axle beam/rack, and the chassis is currently sitting on some milk crates and jack stands. I get identical measurements from the top right front of the chassis front axle beam mounting bracket, to the right rear body to pan bolt hole, and vice-versa. In addition, my "X" measurements are the same from the top right front of the chassis front axle beam mounting bracket, to the left rear body to pan bolt hole, and vice-versa. With that said, are there any other measurements I can make to check for straightness, levelness, etc? The two halves are level (middle bubble) at the top of the tunnel, using a 24" level over the shifter and emergency brake hole, and a 10" level at the shift rod coupling access hole area.
Thank you again for all of your help and advice. Hopefully, I can get this thing nice and straight, and make it what I have dreamed of making it.

[joescoolcustoms]

Good. Glad it is helpful and not a hindrance.

BTW, Lowe's and Home Depot sell metal strapping that is perfect to use as filler on those mis-matched spots. And the sell it in various width's up to 3 inches wide, which are perfect for laying over the tunnel weld seam and welding like Dale describes.

Anyway, the further out from center you can measure, the more accurate you will have as a final product. If you can bolt something to the front pan head that you know is straight, and extend it out as wide as the rear torsion housing, the more accurate you will get.

If your beam is apart and bare, measure on it and see if the tubes are straight. I use some of that metal strapping I spoke of above to lay on the tubes and see if they are straight. Bolt the bare beam on, (full beam is heavy and can be a hand full trying to square a chassis) and measure off of those checked beam tubes, not the shock towers, (they are "close enough" accurate for shocks, but not for chassis measurements).

Also, I use a level and base it on the torsion housing and beam. I use a good know height blocks to raise the level off of the tube on each side to get and accurate reading.

This picture is just mocked up to give an example. Those welding magnets just happened to be in arms length to use for a picture.

I do the same thing up front on a known good beam.

If you can get your measurements to a 1/8", you are darn near perfect for a VW chassis. I have measured many un-cut pans and none are dead on. Most are 1/8" to 5/16" on the "X".
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[Dale M.]

Think you need to relax a bit, you did not offend anybody, and did not start a war.... On the forums here we tend to be a bit blunt and stay with just the facts.... We are not all sweetness and pretty words like a "prissy ladies" forum... I personally did not see any where you offended anyone and your questions were valid.... I personally did not take any offense in anything said, and I would hope I did not say anything to offend you.... Bottom line is we all want to see that it's done right, so you will be satisfied with end product...

Only point I would like to make is put front beam back on so you have a wider "X" pattern to measure to so end line up will be more accurate ... I generally measure from body mount bolt on shock tower casting (nearest torsion bar tube) to base of shock tower on beam....But that is just me...

As Joe Friday used to say on old DRAGNET TV series (black & white) "just the facts"...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[L8ndeb]

Glad nobody is offended. So we can get on getting this thing done!
I think I will put the beam back on, but I do have a 6' piece of 3/4" steel conduit (that is straight) that I have clamped to the (how do I explain this) top indentation for the top bolt of the beam. Make sense? I have taken the "X" measurements from each end of the conduit to the front bolt hole on the torsion arm (hope that is the right name of the piece). The hole is just in front of the level in Joe's pic. I'm guessing it is a mounting hole for the body.
If you'all think I would be more accurate by putting the beam back on and re-measuring, I will.
Again, TIA

[joescoolcustoms]

Do your best to find the center of the pan head/beam head, then center punch a mark so you can re-find it. Use the conduit like you have stated and measure out from the center mark equal distant on the conduit and in my opinion, you are about as accurate as you can get without going to a fab table with a jig, and that may not get it any more accurate.

Post up the Action and Drama pictures of progress as it happens!!
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[L8ndeb]

Ok, got some pics to show progress:

This shows the closure of the gap.


[img]

This one shows the levelness of the tunnel top and the pan mounting ledges.

[/img]

This last one shows a 6' piece of angle iron I have used to do the wheelbase and "X" measurements.

[img]

[/img]


Welding starts tomorrow night. More pics to follow. Any comments welcome, especially before I start welding!

[joescoolcustoms]

Tack it all together. If possible, test fit the body to ensure the pan is not too short/long for the chassis so you can correct it now. Go back and re-measure, level, then finish welding. Looking good.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[Dale M.]

[jspbtown]

If you plan on using some tube rails and a flat floor than now is a good time to remove that rear section of lip.

[L8ndeb]

[BIGMIKEY]

1.25" square tubing fits nice and snug actually.

Mike T
_________________
BIGMIKEY

Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=

1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue.