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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| Slow 1200 wrote: |
On the other hand, the valve bodies are matched to the governors, I have a whole FI auto trans for parts, one day I might dig into it to see what the differences are. |
I have opened five transmission: Four were for rebuild, and one is my parts transmission. Out of these five, there were actually three different valve bodies. So only one matched the Bentley. |
Keep in mind that VW built 2 different AT's for type 3s, 4s, and buses. One trans was from 68 to 71 and the other was from 72 and 73 (the latest my parts book info goes to). The 2nd gen AT uses some different parts from the 1st design.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:20 am Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| An update... Pulled the carbs off this weekend to rebuild, and when I did, I discovered that the nuts that hold them to the manifolds were loose, and I could wiggle the carbs quite easily. Not sure if they became loose over time or if the previous owner just did not tighten them enough originally. Wonder if that has anything to do with the performance issues (and the gas smell)... |
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icelancer
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2014
Posts: 149
Location: Square Bernardino, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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Not sure if its the kit or what but I had the exact same problem when I got my car with ICTs. They need to include lock washers or something...
I opted to use lock nuts instead of washers since the studs were pretty short on my heads.
That will cause serious vacuum leaks and cause the carb adjustment to never be correct.
_________________
71 squareback (1904 A/T)
71 super beetle (1904 M/T)
B5.5 wagon M/T daily driver
SB for squareback or san bernardino....who knows. |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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If the carb nuts were loose, it was user error. Were then any washers under the nuts? I usually use just the 8MM wavy washers, and snug them down good. Since your carbs could be wiggled, that would cause all kinds of running issues, from air leaks to out of sync carbs. Put new gaskets under the carbs, and reinstall.
The manifolds coming loose from the heads is a bigger issue. I really haven't seen the light ICTs do this, more often it is the dual throat carbs like the IDFs. The worst carbs that I have had problems with were the Solex 40PIIs. I don't know what they were made out of, but one carb is about the weight of two IDFs.
The thing to remember is that in any case, there is a lot of weight hanging at an angle, and it is only secured with two nuts. In short order, the gasket can compress, then there is no tension on the nuts, and they start to back off. Its best to run a new setup up for awhile, and periodically check the nuts, until they stop moving.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| If the carb nuts were loose, it was user error. Were then any washers under the nuts? I usually use just the 8MM wavy washers, and snug them down good. Since your carbs could be wiggled, that would cause all kinds of running issues, from air leaks to out of sync carbs. Put new gaskets under the carbs, and reinstall. |
Agreed. You could always go to either an 11mm headed 8x1.25mm nut (smaller external size), or maybe use a light grinding action to give you some clearance on the nuts for the manifold to head connection. I only say that on the manifold screw area triming, as some are cast a little thicker in that area than others, and the PO might have been having trouble getting the nuts to spin while tightening up the manifold. My son ran into this with his ICT manifolds for his type 4 engine. A couple of minutes with a grinder fixed them right up.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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Putting the carbs back in, I noticed that the carb on the right side of the engine has a hose connected to something, and the one on the left does not. This hose goes through the firewall, and I have not gone under the car to find out where it ends up.
Is this something that I need to add to the other carb?
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| grnerd wrote: |
Ok, here is a shot of the engine. I can upload those shots of the carb itself if you want.
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Thank you.
It looks like you've got an 009 distributor (known for having a "flat spot" just off idle), and no balance tube (where you'd want to pull vacuum for the trans). Note, these 2 items alone can cause tuning difficulties with an AT. Trying to get the 009 timed to work well with the AT will be your biggest challenge. Ideally you want to time the engine @ 2500 and have 28 to 30* max advance, and let the idle timing fall where it will. The lack of a balance tube (it smooths out the pulses between the left and right engine banks) hurts getting the carbs dialed in, as you don't get some of the vacuum draw from the opposite side of the engine. You'll need a carb balance tool (synchrometer) to dial them in, but to add the balance tube, you'll have to drill and tap the manifolds for hose barbs, and then add a "T" in the hose for the trans. That will give you a good signal for the trans to shift correctly (pulling from both sides of the engine). Adam had to drill and tap 2 holes on each of his manifolds just to get a better signal to the trans, on his old 70 Square that he sold last year. Some transmissions need the extra vacuum, but most don't. But, without the vacuum hose (or any vacuum supplied), the trans shifts very hard, and winds out between shifts (really stretches them out). It reallly needs a vacuum source to work correctly.
Oh, you also should get the fuel filter out of the engine compartment (fire hazard). |
That hose goes to your AT, but it should also go to your other carburetor like Bob told you in Nov. Maybe vacuum also to a good used FI distributor to replace your 009?
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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"That hose goes to your AT, but it should also go to your other carburetor like Bob told you in Nov. Maybe vacuum also to a good used FI distributor to replace your 009?"
Ok, so that is where I am getting confused. Does the balance tube go between the two manifolds as I have seen in other posts? or can I put a T on that tube that goes to the AT and connect the two carbs together using the existing connection? |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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Your intake manifolds are stock steel w/vacuum outlets or aftermarket aluminum w/no vacuum outlets? You could run 2 separate vacuum lines. 1 for the AT & 1 for the carburetors? Manifold vacuum is better than carburetor vacuum I believe. Aftermarket aluminum manifolds are easy to drill & tap for brass vacuum outlets.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| grnerd wrote: |
Putting the carbs back in, I noticed that the carb on the right side of the engine has a hose connected to something, and the one on the left does not. This hose goes through the firewall, and I have not gone under the car to find out where it ends up.
Is this something that I need to add to the other carb?
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Yes, the hose (going thru the firewall) under the fuel hose needs to have a "T"and aanother piece from the left manifold connecting it. That hose is 1 side of a balance tube. Ideally you want both sides tied together, with a T in the middle with a hose going to the vacuum modulator. The other hose goes to the vac can on the distributor. It doesn't need a hose from the left carb since you already have 1 from the right carb.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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Since the hose connection is below the carburetor butterfly, it is manifold vacuum. The best fix would be to find a hose barb that is about the same size as the one on the carb. Then drill and tap the left manifold right below the carb, and before it separates into the two individual runners. Then use vacuum hose, connect it to the carb and your new barb fitting, then T it to the trans.
You never want to use carburetor (ported) vacuum for the auto transmission. See graph below. With carburetor vacuum at very small throttle opening (like cruising down a city street) most likely there will be not enough vacuum to the transmission causing erratic shifting.
However, you can use manifold vacuum for a distributer (I am). The only difference is that you have more timing advance at idle and small throttle openings. I actually like it. I have found that the out of the hole acceleration is better with manifold vacuum to the distributer.
One last note, disregard all RPM and timing labels on the graph. This is not a VW specific graph, it just shows the relationship between manifold and carburetor (ported) vacuum.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Either way, that's a LOT of advance! |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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So, I apologize about this but I want to make sure I am understanding everything, which I am not.
Previous to this discovery, there was no "balance tube," but there was a "vacuum hose" that went from the Manifold Vacuum on my right carb to the AT (this is what I circled in my picture). Is the "vacuum modulator" where it connects to the AT? The rubber cap that covers the same barb on the left carb was torn, and nothing was connected to it, so that was just letting air in?
According to BobNotch, I should add a t-, so that one hose end goes to the Manifold Vacuum on the left, one to the Manifold Vacuum on the right, and one goes to the vacuum modulator on the AT? Then, there is a hose mentioned that goes to the vac can on the distributor, but I am not sure where that comes from.
Then I hear from Multi69 that I instead should tap the left manifold, and run a hose from the right manifold vacuum barb directly to the newly tapped left manifold, but not the manifold vacuum on the left carb, and then t- that off to the AT. And again there is mention of connecting something to the distributor.
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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Sorry for the confusion. I did not realize that the left carburetor had the same vacuum port as the right  . Since both carbs have that port, you will want to T off of their ports, then run it down to the modulator on the AT.
As far as vacuum to the distributer, That only applies if you have a vacuum canister on the distributer itself. If you are running the 009 distributer, then disregard all mention of running vacuum to it.
So go with the Bob Notch picture
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Great, thanks for the clarification!! |
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grnerd
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2014
Posts: 65
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| Got it all back together today, and man, what a difference! Thanks so much for your help, Samba!! |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: 69 Squareback AT stalling question |
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| grnerd wrote: |
| Got it all back together today, and man, what a difference! Thanks so much for your help, Samba!! |
Congrats. Glad we could help. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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