Need advice, Dead battery

[IOSilver]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone here would be willing to give me some pointers on charging a dead battery (?)
You guys have helped me a lot in the past & I know you know Westys better than anyone else I can think of..
I don't know a whole lot about cars myself but I hung onto our 85' Westfalia after my hubby died because I like camping & it's great for hauling stuff.
I don't get the Westy out for long trips all that often but I do try to drive
it once every week or two & keep up fluid flushes & oil changes to keep it in decent shape.
But.. I got distracted for awhile & let it sit a little too long in my cold garage & now the starter battery appears to be flat.

I have a DieHard 15/2 Amp fully automatic microprocessor controlled battery charger with a 100amp engine starter feature (but having trouble figuring out how to use it correctly.
I also have 2 battery tenders & a digital multimeter (I'm no sleuth on these
devices either.

The Westy has an Interstate MT41 starter battery under the passenger seat & a deep cell auxilary battery under the driver's seat connected via a relay. Hubby installed the auxiliary battery & relay kit so we could run
accessories without draining the starter battery during camping trips.

I had a battery starting problem a couple years ago that I eventually traced to a cracked negative battery cable connector on the starter battery.
I replaced the ground cable after having both batteries tested & replaced the auxiliary battery with another deep cell battery at that time.
Everything was working just fine since then.. until now.

I've tried charging the starter battery with the Diehard charger but it never
completes charging & gets stuck at 20% (2nd led indicator light out of 5).
I charged it for 15 hrs & it never progressed, disconnected the charger & tried starting the engine but it was a no go. It didn't have enough power to crank over more than twice then resorted to clicking.

I COULD however start the engine using the Diehard charger's 100 amp start feature. I did that & drove around for about 1/2 hour the other day hoping to recharge the batteries but the next day it was back to nearly dead & unable to start again.
I'm nearly out of gas now & the van is parked too close to my garage wall to refill the tank & I'm afraid if I jump it, drive to a gas station & turn off
the engine to refill it won't restart again & strand me there.
Ideally, I'd like to recharge it in my garage.

I have checked there is sufficient distilled water in the starter battery & that the battery cable connectors & terminal posts are free of corrosion &
tight. I want to charge the battery but not sure how to proceed. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong or overlooking something.
Hoping someone here can straighten me out(?.

Here are some questions I have:

Do I need to disconnect the car's battery cables from the starter battery
before charging it?
What about the cables from the relay kit from the auxiliary battery that are
connected to the positive post on the starter battery? Do they need to be
disconnected before charging the starter battery?

The Diehard charger manual says to connect the red clip to the positive
battery post but NOT connect the black clip to the negative battery post.
Instead it says to connect to a heavy, unpainted metal part of the chasis or
engine block as far away as possible from the battery. Well, I can't find any such place. The engine block is at the rear of the vehicle & just about everything else within reach is painted or carpeted. The only unpainted, exposed metal I see within reach is the battery strap bolt near the top of the battery bay & the seat swivel plate above that, both of which are very near the battery (It was this battery strap bolt that I connected the negative clip to when trying to charge up which may be why it didn't work)
Can't I safely use the negative battery terminal post? or is there something
else I should look for to use?
I know the van's negative battery cable connects to the chasis -there's a ground bolt for it deep inside the battery bay (getting to THAT bolt it isnt easy though without lifting the battery out. It's a very tight squeeze.
I'd like to recharge without having to remove the battery from the bay if at all possible.

Once I have everything connected correctly & ready to charge, should I select the 2amp or the 15 amp charge rate in the charger? I tried using the 15 amp setting to charge it quicker but like I say, it's seems to get stuck at 20% endlessly.


Appreciate any light you can shed on my problem as the lightbulb in my head grows ever dimmer, lol
Thanks very much for reading this far & for any advice you can lend..


Cyndi

[dhaavers]

Sounds like your battery -or- alternator -or- charger is telling you it's done.

If you have to do this "yourself" (ie: not call a tow truck/starting service/roadside
assistance) I'd suggest you use the starter/boost feature, get the van running,
borrow some gas from a neighbor's gas can or squirt in a couple gallons with
the van running and drive to your local service garage or FLAPS for a professional opinion.

Time for a complete charging system diagnostic...

PS: If the battery is really flat, you might be fine connecting directly to both
battery terminals, but don't plug in the charger until both are connected.
OTOH, the seatbelt bolt is a very solid ground point, and/or the front door
latch/strike post...
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[Wildthings]

The reason for not hooking directly to the ground post is to prevent sparks near the battery when attaching or removing the clamps. Sage advice but one often wiggles the positive clamp around once charging begins to try and get a better connection potentially creating sparks. Agreed one should not hook up the cables to the battery with the charger plugged into the outlet.

Can't say what condition you battery is really in, but having a manual charger that will really force the juice into the battery is often the way to go. Fully automatic chargers are pretty wimpy when it comes to charging a deeply drained battery.

[fxr]

If a battery is left fully discharged for more than a few hours it deteriorates rapidly to the point of no return, as the cells sulphate up beyond the 'de-sulphation' capability of the better intelligent chargers.

I'd guess the main battery is now toast, and if over a few years old was probably about to finally die anyway.

I'd advise replacing it, and keeping it on an 'intelligent' maintainer if the van is not in use for more than a week or so. Same for the aux battery as well.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[IOSilver]

Thanks much for the advice! (been researching on the internet for hours as well & I think what I'm going to try is:

Disconnect the battery cables, connect the Diehard charger using one of the two grounding points you recommended & let it charge for a couple of days at 2amps. Disconnect charger, & test battery with a multimeter, reattach battery cables, turn on headlights a couple mins to remove surface charge, switch off headlights & test again.

From what I've been reading on the internet, if I get less than 5volts the battery is bad, less than 10 volts & it's on it's way out.
I should expect to see 12.6volts or close to that & somewhere around 14volts when the engine's running. If there's no noticable increase in voltage with the engine started verses not then the alternator is bad.

If those two things look alright I suspect there might be a parasitic drain somewhere.
One thing my husband did was install an on/off switch on the battery/water/AC levels display located in the stove/sink cabinet so those indicator lights could be disabled & not drain the battery..
The dash clock to my recollection has never worked.
The radio is NOT connected to the auxiliary battery & runs off the starter battery but ordinarilly only when the ignition key is turned to on (I believe it's powered by the alternator). It's an aftermarket Sony clock/radio/MP3 player with an on/off switch & detachable faceplate. I usually turn it off & remove the faceplate when not in the van.
Could it & the dash clock still be draining the battery though?
I don't know enough about electrics to say.

Oh well, one dragon a time, right?...
I'd like to see what I can find out before visiting a repair shop which is guaranteed to be drain on my wallet, lol. If this test goes nowhere & I learn nothing that's where I'll be heading next (unless someone has some tricks up their sleeves they'd like me to try. I'm up for anything that saves $$ & won't put me in the hospital

Thanks so much for all your help & advice! I really appreciate it!..
Cyndi

[Terry Kay]

Check the specific gravity of the electrolyte, and load test the batteries.

This will require two tools;
Battery Hydrometer, and a battery load tester.

Fastest answer you'll get on the batteries condition, and what you going to have to do to get it to start.

If you're leaving it sit for some time between using the van, you'll have to disconnect both batteries or they will go dead---
_________________
T.K.

[Tom Powell]

From your last post, I think you have a good handle on what to do and what to look for. Proceed.

My bet is that the battery is toast and will not recharge. You should be able to get a good idea of this without a hydrometer. Your best bet may be to call Interstate or FLAPS to see if they have the correct size for the Vanagon, get it started with the engine starter feature, drive it to a gas station, do an engine-running refuel if necessary, and then get a new battery. The Interstate or FLAPS people will help if you plead old age, weakness, lack of knowledge, or charm them. For me an old age plea seems to work better than charm.

When I charge a battery I disconnect the ground cable, hookup the cables, plug in the charger, and check the charging rate. It will be high initially (6+ amps) and drop down in a few hours. If it remains high then the battery is usually toast. Twenty four hours or less will tell the tale.

Batteries generate hydrogen gas as they are being charged and a spark may ignite this. That is the reason for connecting the charger ground cable at a remote place and plugging in the 110 last and far. Unplug the 110V before removing the charging cables from the battery.

Other sources may not recommend disconnecting the battery ground cable and suggest connecting the charger cable at a remote place. However, if you have a large parasitic draw or a short circuit, the battery may not charge normally with its ground cable connected. A usable/rechargeable battery may appear to be toast.

AAA might be your best friend. Just towing it to Interstate or FLAPS for a new battery.

Aloha
tp

[Terry Kay]

Funny thing ;

A hydrometer would tell anyone in a minute or two what was going on with the battery in a blink of an eye.
Not having to depend on anyone's opinion, or some crazy sales tactic if it was drug over to a parts store.

I have seen some shakey snow jobs in the sales techniques used at parts stores.
They sure don't do this sort of thing all of the time out of the goodness out of their hearts.

A hydrometer is cheap, and the battery's condition can be checked out right in the driveway.
No need to depend on anyone.
_________________
T.K.

[fxr]

A hydrometer is only useful for older flooded cell batteries - not many of those still around!

If the sickly battery is over three years old - it owes you nothing, replace it. If it's lasted longer than three years (and many if not most of the larger ones do) then you're already ahead.

You need a battery to be in tip-top condition for the van to be happy, especially in the cold.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[Tom Powell]

My thoughts on a hydrometer and replying to this post:

This is a woman who is trying to maintain a Vanagon after her husband has died. She seems to have a good grasp on the fundamentals of battery charging and multimeter use. She is not familiar with a hydrometer and may not have transportation to purchase one. It may be a sealed battery and she may not be able to use a hydrometer for testing. A hydrometer and battery acid in the hands of an inexperienced or clumsy person could be a dangerous thing. A hydrometer needs to be cleaned and stored properly after use.

For you, me, and many others a hydrometer would certainly be the first choice to get a correct answer. to the problem. For her and the equipment she has at hand, she may be able to determine that the battery needs to be replaced.

Aloha
tp

[Tom Powell]

[dhaavers]

Again:
- get it running
- get some gas
- get it to a shop
- get it checked

A simple charging system check at your FLAPS or service garage (Sears, whatever...)
will tell you what you need, and it'll be cheap or free.

Do that and you're already mostly done...
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[Merian]

[IOSilver]

Ok, thanks. I'll pick up a hydrometer so I can test the battery cells.
I think I may have a load tester already (hubby had a lot of of tools & I think I remember seeing one of these testers during my move & I'm not one to throw things out so I'll look around & see if I can't find it..

From what I've learned from the internet, temperature can affect the results of the hydrometer test so it's best to test when it's between 60 & 100 degrees out. Below 60 & I'll need to do some subtracting to get accurate readings.
& as far as the load test goes, everything I've read says I need to charge the battery as fully as possible before conducting the test (sound right?)
I expect it'll be couple more days before I'm done trying to charge the battery.
In the meantime I'll go buy a hydrometer (they're cheap enough) & see if I can't find the load tester in the garage..


You're so right about the shady sales tactics they use in these auto parts stores. When I had a battery problem with the van previously, I took the Interstate battery to be load tested at Riley Auto Parts & they told me it was definately bad & convinced me to buy a new one. Then I learned Interstate would replace it for free if I'd take it to them to be tested & they deemed it bad so I returned the newly purchased battery to Riley for a refund, got my old one back & took it to Interstate to be tested & they said "there's absolutely nothing wrong with this battery. If there were we'd replace it but it's just fine". I said oh? Well why did Riley tell me it was bad I wonder? "To sell you a new one".
Riley gave me a really hard time when I tried to return the battery I'd been conned into buying from them. Refused to take it back if it'd already been installed in my vehicle. I lied & said it'd been sitting on my garage floor the whole time. They examined the posts a long time for scrape marks before accepting it back. I told Interstate I felt guilty lying to get my refund & they said "Why? They didn't have any problem lying to you to make a sale"(true
As it turned out, a cracked negative ground cable clamp was all that was wrong that time (a $9 part!). Still, it came at a price because I wound up laid up for 2 weeks afterwards (pulled a groin muscle hauling those freakin' heavy batteries around for nothing.
I'm not as gullible as I once was & pretty much insist on verifying everything for myself now before reaching for my checkbook, lol.

I'l let you know what happens with the van. I'm preparing myself for a worst case scenario (expensive battery replacement. This one is afterall years old now) but we'll see...

Thanks so much for your help!
Cyndi

[Ahwahnee]

[IOSilver]

Thanks for the tip re: Walmart.
As I recall from last time the biggest obstacle I'll be facing is finding one that fits inside the battery compartment under the seat. That space is really small. The MT41 Interstate I have barely fits in there with the relay wiring tucked at it's side (luckilly, I had the foresight to attach some straps to it before lowering it in there so I'd be able to get it back out again.
I know Batteries Plus had one the right dimensions. Also GoWesty had one the right size but I believe they were deep cell batteries & not the kind I'll need.
I'll check at Walmart & see what they've got. Thanks for the suggestion!

Cyndi

[Terry Kay]

The batteries Wal-Mart has are made by Johnson controls, come with a two year, no questions asked warrantee, pro rated for three years after that, and they will install it for you.

If you can find the load tester, you can pretty much forget about the hydrometer, unless you really want to know which cell is sulfated & not taking a charge.

If you've had the batteries both disconnected, and still went flat, I would have to say the starting battery is shot, plus you mentioned it will not take a charge.
Good indication it's all done.

Is this the Interstate battery?

I recall the story, I recall exactly what happened.
I don't think Wal-Mart guys are sharp enough to try and pull the wool over your eyes on this battery deal.

I'd go over there to get another one.

Good Luck,
_________________
T.K.

[Tom Powell]

Before you spend the time and energy to get a hydrometer check to see if you have a sealed battery or a battery with screw caps. Many batteries today are sealed/no maintenance and a hydrometer is not the tool to test them.



Aloha
tp

[kamzcab86]

[Terry Kay]

Here is the exact battery load tester that I use to do where your trying to get to-
It's a Milton battery load tester, and will give 99.9% of the information you need to know with the flick of the load switch--and more.
It'll tell you how much the battery is good for at rest, it'll tell you how much load capacity it tests for---the needle will swing right into it's tested load capacity, and it will also tell you what the alternator is producing and getting to the battery.

If you can locate your hubbies load tester, this would help you out a lot--without taking the Van anywhere.
Then you can make the decision where you want to get a battery if needed.
_________________
T.K.