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Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:21 pm    Post subject: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

I usually poke around in the '58-'67/Ghia forums, but I figure that you guys probably have more to do with stuff like this.

THE SETUP:
The car is a stock '63 Beetle running a newly-rebuilt, standard spec, 1600DP motor. The carb is a professionally-rebuilt German SOLEX 34PICT-3 with the smaller throttle plate hole. The distributor is a refurbished German Bosch '034' SVDA. All the motor's mechanical adjustments (including carb) are spot on. New spark plugs are gapped to .028" and show normal color. The ignition timing is set to 30° BTDC at full advance w/vacuum plugged. The fuel tank & filter are brand new and all the lines are clear.

WHAT'S GOING ON:
In the driveway, the motor starts instantly from cold, idles smoothly and revs freely when you gas it. Out on the road, it's a different story. Even when fully warmed up, it stumbles on hard acceleration and shows flat spots at varying speeds/RPM. For instance, it'll be running along pretty well in 4th gear at 50MPH, but if you punch the throttle it feels totally flat. Slowly start backing off the gas, and it eventually finds a spot where it 'catches' and starts to run OK again.

WHAT'S BEEN DONE SO FAR:
Intake checked for vacuum leaks, none found. Verified with strobe that the '034's ignition advance is working properly both with & without vacuum. Even swapped the distributor for a brand-new '034' clone but saw no difference whatsoever. That leaves the carburetor. It was running a 130 main, 55 idle and 75 air-correction jet to begin with, but gradually stepping up to a 135 main & 65 idle provided little-to-no improvement. Accelerator pump squirt is set to max and the nozzle is properly aimed.
The only thing I haven't checked is fuel pressure. The pump's new and the carb's float bowl fills to about 1/2" or so from the top.

So, does anyone have any idea what's going on here? Or is this another one of those unsolvable 34PICT mysteries?
I have a SOLEX/BROSOL H30/31 and a matching vacuum-only distributor that I can swap in, but I'd like to get the current setup to work if I can.
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ROCKOROD71
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Did Volksbitz rebuild the carb? If so he is really good about offering support after the fact, I would try and contact him. I had a similar symptom with my engine about a year ago, my rotor was badly damaged. I swapped it out and cleaned up the dizzy and that helped but it didn't completely go away. Ended up being a small piece of new fuel line that was stuck in the float valve end of the carb. Sometimes when you cut new fuel line a little piece might come out and get in there. Doesn't take much. I'd confirm the fuel path is clear, just take the top of the carb off and blow it out with air, take the float valve out and inspect it, blow the passage out and replace. The 34-3 is a bitch for sure.
Might want to look at the clutch? If it runs good standing still but is not "catching" while driving could it be clutch slippage, main seal leakleading to oil on the clutch, etc etc.? Symptoms like these cna be many things, a head scratcher. Go from cheapest, easiest solution and work you way toward debt Laughing

Good luck
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1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
79SuperVert wrote:

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pete2049
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

I have a 72 Super and was having hesitation issues coming out of 2nd gear. All signs pointed to a vacuum leak, but I couldn't find it. In the meantime, I wanted to clean out the intake manifold preheat pipes to fix another problem, so I did that. After re-installing the intake manifold the problem was gone. New gaskets and boots must have fixed the problem. I don't know where the leak was, but I couldn't find it using the conventional method (carb cleaner spray...)

Not to say you should rip your intake manifold off, but time for another vacuum leak check to make sure?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Manifold heat tubes clear and working?
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

ROCKOROD71 wrote:
Did Volksbitz rebuild the carb? If so he is really good about offering support...
Yes. I'll be giving him a call.

pete2049 wrote:
All signs pointed to a vacuum leak...
Every time I've had issues with vacuum leaks, it was most evident at idle. Either the carb adjustments had to be way outside the norm, or the motor wouldn't idle at all. This motor starts up easily and idles smooth as silk, but it wouldn't hurt to do another leak check anyway.

Q-Dog wrote:
Manifold heat tubes clear and working?
Yes...left side's hot, right side is cooler. I also checked for open flow when the muffler was off.
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miller0358
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Kind of sounds like a vacuum leak to me also. As a last resort, new carb intake gasket, new intake boots and new vac. hoses. Cheap try. Jeff
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
The distributor is a refurbished German Bosch '034' SVDA. ... The ignition timing is set to 30° BTDC at full advance w/vacuum plugged.... Verified with strobe that the '034's ignition advance is working properly both with & without vacuum. Even swapped the distributor for a brand-new '034' clone but saw no difference whatsoever.

With your ignition timing set at 30BTDC @full mechanical advance, where does the idle timing fall (hoses disconnected and plugged)? Ideally it should be around 7.5BTDC.

You mentioned checking the vacuum advance. How did you test this? A non-working vacuum can could result in the hesitation you mentioned.
You want to make sure that with sufficient vacuum the vacuum advance will add 8-12deg of timing advance. You can either use a vacuum hand pump connected to the vacuum can or you can connect he vacuum can to a strong vacuum source. At idle, one of the rear facing vacuum ports on the carb should have intake manifold vacuum. If you connect the vacuum hose here while watching the timing marks you should be able to verify the timing advances when the hoses is connected.
Another way to test the vacuum can is to raise the idle to max advance (@3500rpm) and while holding the rpms steady, connect the vacuum can to the left side vacuum advance port. At a steady high rpm this port should be nearly the same as intake vacuum and should advance the vacuum can. Watch the timing marks as you do this. You want to see 8-12deg of advance.


rcooled wrote:
Accelerator pump squirt is set to max and the nozzle is properly aimed.

As soon as the throttle is opened the accelerator pump should squirt fuel from the brass nozzle into the carb throat. If there is any delay in the fuel flowing or the fuel is not a strong stream, there will be hesitation upon acceleration.
Also, too much fuel (flooding) from the accelerator pump could cause hesitation as well. Try different settings and see what difference it makes.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
The distributor is a refurbished German Bosch '034' SVDA. All the motor's mechanical adjustments (including carb) are spot on. New spark plugs are gapped to .028" and show normal color. The ignition timing is set to 30° BTDC at full advance w/vacuum plugged.



This troubles me, if I understand correctly. I can understand 30° BTDC at full 3500 rpm with vacuum advance connected so both advances are fully in with a SVDA distributor, don't know why you would set up otherwise ???
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cyclehobby
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Though everyone seems like they've got good suggestions, I suggest you look at the fuel line coming out of the gas tank. It often makes a tight turn right as it comes out of the tank and I've seen it kink enough to let the car run until you try to draw enough gas, then it bogs and cuts out.

Another similar suggestion could be in the fuel pump push rod. They can be a bit of a tight fit in the plastic block the pump sits on and as they move up and down, they get hot and swell a bit to the point where they stop pumping. Chris Vallone at classicvwBugs.com has a video on this.

Hope whatever it is, it's easy to remedy.

Good luck.
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:

With your ignition timing set at 30BTDC @full mechanical advance, where does the idle timing fall (hoses disconnected and plugged)? Ideally it should be around 7.5BTDC.

Yes, idle is 7.5° BTDC, vacuum on or off.

ashman40 wrote:
You mentioned checking the vacuum advance. How did you test this?

Applied vacuum and saw that the advance action worked freely and was able to hold position with vacuum capped. Also used a strobe to watch the timing advance to 30°BTDC on a degree pulley w/vacuum off (just past 40° with vacuum on) as RPM was run up from idle to 3500.

Cusser wrote:
rcooled wrote:
The ignition timing is set to 30° BTDC at full advance w/vacuum plugged.

This troubles me, if I understand correctly. I can understand 30° BTDC at full 3500 rpm with vacuum advance connected so both advances are fully in with a SVDA distributor, don't know why you would set up otherwise ???

With the vacuum disconnected, the SVDA's weights provide about the same amount of total advance (30° @ 3500) as a mechanical-only distributor like the 009. With the hose connected and motor running no-load (like sitting in the driveway), the vacuum will kick in and push the spark to a max of around 40° BTDC. You'll never see that much advance when actually driving, but while cruising at part-throttle with manifold vacuum high (like a steady 60MPH on the freeway), that extra advance means better gas mileage. If you crack the throttle open to pick up speed, vacuum drops instantly and the distributor retards to prevent detonation.

cyclehobby wrote:
...look at the fuel line coming out of the gas tank...I've seen it kink... Good luck.

Thanks! The fuel run is clear & unobstructed from the tank to the carb.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Probably not this, but I notice you said you had a 34 PICT 3, and you say when you back off the throttle a bit it seems to catch and go. Are you running an alternator or a generator? Is your carb's accelerator pump linkage properly adjusted for whichever you are running?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7723452


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rcooled
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
Is your carb's accelerator pump linkage properly adjusted for whichever you are running?

Yes, the pump linkage is set up for use with an alternator. Plenty of clearance there.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

rcooled wrote:
Accelerator pump squirt is set to max and the nozzle is properly aimed.

Have you tried reducing the accelerator pump discharge? Is there any slack in the linkage that would delay the squirting?
The instant the throttle plate opens more from a steady state the in rush of air will lean out the mixture. The accelerator pump compensates for this. A loose or worn linkage will delay the extra fuel and you will have hesitation or a flat spot.


rcooled wrote:
The pump's new and the carb's float bowl fills to about 1/2" or so from the top.

Typical Solex fuel bowl level should be around 3/4" from the top of the bowl. With only 1/2" to the top it may be possible the air flow is drawing fuel out of the venturi prematurely causing too rich a mixture. Try adding washers between the inlet valve and the top cover to lower the level of the fuel in the bowl to the normal 3/4".
You should check the fuel pressure and get it in the 2-3psi range. Add gaskets below the mechanical fuel pump to reduce pressure. Too much pressure or a leaking/saturated float could be causing the high fuel level.
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:

Have you tried reducing the accelerator pump discharge? Is there any slack in the linkage that would delay the squirting?

I started at about 75%, then increased it to see if it had any effect (it didn't). Linkage is all good.

ashman40 wrote:
...fuel bowl level should be around 3/4" from the top. fuel pressure...2-3psi.

I'll double-check that and adjust if necessary. Need to check the pressure too.

Thanks for the suggestions...
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Frank Bassman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Checked your electrical and everything is 100 percent spot on? Good.

I would take the top of the carb off, take the float out. Take the top air jet out. Take out the side idle jet and the plug on the side of it. Empty the bowl by removing the side plug on the carb. Get yourself a can of carb cleaner. (I use brake parts cleaner but thats just me) and blow the main passage, the idle jet passage and the two brass looking orifices at the top of the carb base (they are exposed when you take the top off.). Also the tiny jet passage that is right next to the idle jet. My money is that youve got crap in there somewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Frank Bassman wrote:
Checked your electrical and everything is 100 percent spot on? Good.

I would take the top of the carb off, take the float out. Take the top air jet out. Take out the side idle jet and the plug on the side of it. Empty the bowl by removing the side plug on the carb. Get yourself a can of carb cleaner. (I use brake parts cleaner but thats just me) and blow the main passage, the idle jet passage and the two brass looking orifices at the top of the carb base (they are exposed when you take the top off.). Also the tiny jet passage that is right next to the idle jet. My money is that youve got crap in there somewhere.


-Frank


...yup
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1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
79SuperVert wrote:

30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it.


asiab3 wrote:

Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days.


**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy**
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rcooled
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Frank Bassman wrote:
Checked your electrical and everything is 100 percent spot on? Good.

12V electrics are all good.

Frank Bassman wrote:
My money is that you've got crap in there somewhere.

The carb's been completely rebuilt, so I assumed it would be all cleaned & dialed in. Certainly wouldn't hurt to run some cleaner thru it. You never know...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

I've been battling the same issue for about 3 months now. I have the aircooled.net svda and using a solex 34 pict 3. I started out with 130 main and about a +2 on the accelerator pump setting. Ran like a top for the longest time until I did a carb. swap. I then proceeded to the initial setup I had and poof I now have the same issues as yourself. I rebuilt the 34 pict 3 4 times with no luck and all adjustments are spot on and new bushings. I went down on the jet size to a 127.5 main and had to adjust my pump discharge to almost a -1. It seems to run a little better but still smell excessive fuel at idle. Plug colors are just as they need to be and gapped at .028. With the carb. that I had with the 130 main jet there was a noticeable vacumm at idle"Shade tree way by pulling off the hose at the vacuum canister." The present carb. has a very weak vacuum at idle. It does run a little smoother but it lacks in pickup compared to the other carb. Did a compression check and all cylinders were at a 145 reading. I'll continue on to check fuel pressure. Almost acts like an advance issue. I wish you the best as I'll continue to follow your thread and hopefully things will surface.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

airgrabber wrote:
With the carb. that I had with the 130 main jet there was a noticeable vacumm at idle"Shade tree way by pulling off the hose at the vacuum canister." The present carb. has a very weak vacuum at idle.

Which vacuum port on the carb are you talking about?
One or more of the rear-facing vacuum ports on the 34Pict-3 are intake vacuum. At idle these intake vacuum ports will have a very strong vacuum.
The left side vacuum port on the carb will be "ported vacuum". This comes from a hole just above the throttle plate when the throttle is closed. It should have zero vacuum until the throttle is cracked open, at which point the vacuum will be nearly the same as intake vacuum. This ported vacuum is connected to the vacuum advance nipple on your distributor vacuum can.

If you have incorrectly adjusted the throttle plate opening and the ported vacuum hose is exposed to intake vacuum at idle then you are likely prematurely advancing the ignition timing. On the SVDA and DVDA distribitor you want no vacuum advance at idle and nearly full vacuum advance as soon as the throttle cracks open. To get this adjusted properly you want the throttle plate fully closed at wamed up idle. Turn the throttle arm screw in until it just touches the lowest level of the fast idle cam and 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Opening the throttle more than this will likely expose the ported vacuum port (not what you want to do).
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'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Searched many threads for a fix...still runs like crap Reply with quote

Thanks Ashman40. I am going to double check that!
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