My 412 these days..

[raygreenwood]

DO NOT...fiberglass the glovebox for reinforcement. It will be the death of it.

They need no reinforcing. What causes them to get trashed is one of two reasons....usually a combination of both.

1. They get wet from leaking windscreen seals
2. The owner does not greases the cable for the trunk. The twisting difficulty is more torque than the riveted carboard can handle.

Use the transmission fluid method of greasing the cable tube and the front latch and it will permanently be slicker than snot.

But....spraying the glovebox with urethane sealer inside and out and letting it dry well works wonders for waterproofing.

The problem with fiberglass is that it starts to curl and shrink with the heat under tbe dash. It eventually delaminates....taking chunks of cardboard with it.

One really really important note when re-installing the switches in the dash.

Please note the indentations stamped into the metal of the dash....that correspond to the notches in the switch body. You MUST be absolutely sure that the headlight switch....most especially.....is aligned properly and make sure that the outer bezel screw that holds it into the dash.....is very tight.

If the bezel comes loose and the headligjt switch rotates......IT CAN KILL YOU!

This has caused me problems on two different cars and very nearly got me killed in a tunnel.

What happens is the switch can rotate ro the left...ground out on the metal of the dash. It wil blow the main fuse ......which kills EVERYTHING.....including the emergency flashers.

With the dash out you can also install insulation to the left of the switch so it cannot ground f it rotates.
Ray

[ClassicCamper]

Wow, a lot of passion in that paragraph, Ray. Thanks for the advice and I'll certainly take it under advisement. You have to admit. That is a sweet dash, right???

What are your thoughts about replacing dash now and headliner and windshield later? There is vinyl covering the windshield frame, which looks tucked into the dash. Its part of the headliner. Issue is, I need to save funds to do paint, headliner, seals in that order. I'd really like to get dash in now.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

[kgarchivinusa]

Hi there,

I changed the dashboard on my 411. Lot of work, but lot of fun also.

_________________
1958 Ghia Coupe aerosilver/graywhite
1966 Ghia Coupe lotoswhite/black pigalle
1968 sunroof bug savannah beige
1968 VW 411 4-door royal red
1968 VW 411 L 4-door cobaltblue
1988 Porsche 924S Targa alpinweiss

(O = i = O) Karmann Ghia rassig und charmant [hot-blooded and charming] [O o\ i /o O]

[raygreenwood]

Very nice! Its not too hard as work goes.....just time consuming and tedious.
Ray

[ClassicCamper]

Thanks for posting your dash pictures,kgarchivinusa. I'm getting excited to start mine but having a blast driving the car around. It's going to be hard to lay the car up for the dashectomy. To begin the process, I'm going to take the color wiring diagram to a local office super store and have each page of the diagram located in the Technical section of this site (thanks Samba) enlarged. Then I'll tack it to the garage wall like a poster. I did this with my previous restos and it worked like a charm. I'll be sure to post progress as I go. Right now, I'm working on the heater timer built into the clock. I finally found and installed the elusive little plastic tab necessary for its function. Next step for the clock/timer is to find a working movement. Once installed, this set-up is going to look really cool:

I do have a question. Does anyone have an air conditioner evaporator underneath the dashboard? If so, where is the fusebox mounted? Pictures appreciated.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

The dash is not too hard. I have never needed a wiring diagram to remove the dash. Just proceed slowly.

Remove the steering wheel and the bolts for the pedal stanchions first all, except for one of the 13mm bolts to hold the pedal cluster up. This gets it out of your way.

Even when the instruments are tigjt.....you should be able ...with care..... to rotate them about 35-40° to both left and right.

Start with the clock....always. Put on some latex or nitrile gloves to give grip....graps the bezel.....and turn the clock so that the 3:00 mark is now down by 5:00. It will be a bit of a pain.

Carefully.....be calm and relaxed. ...wriggle your right hand up behind the dash through the mesh of wires.....to the clock....and you will feel the round, knurled tube nut. Since its backwards to you......you turn it toward the passenger side. If you dont have much finger strength. ....it has a 4mm allen key opening in the back. You will have to have the patience to work an allen key back there and fit it in.

Trust me....lying on your back under the dash does nothing for this. Sitting semi-comfortably in the seat with your arm up there is the best way.

Once that right hand tube nut and bracket arm falls away.....the clock will turn easier.....now turn the clock so that the 9:00 position is down close to 6:00....so you can reach the other tube nut.

So......the clock pulls forward out of the dash. With a fine point sharpy. ...mark the wire color on the side of the clock by each wire. DO NOT pull the female wire connectors out.....turn the bulb holders 90° each and let them hang.

The reason....you do the clock first.....is because once the clock is out.....you can easily reach the right hand 3:00 tube nut on the speedometer. It is not reachable easily with th3 clock in and the left hand speedo nut is not reachable at all.

So disconnect the speedo cable, the 3:00 tube nut and bracket. ...then rotate the speedo 90° clockwise and you can reach the 9:00 tube nut at the 12 o'clock position.

For the switches.....first go to Harbor Freight and buy a cheap 1/2" wide flat blade screwdriver. Use your dremel tool and a file....to notch the center of the blade, thin the thickness and grind the width....to make a tool that fits in the notch of the screw-in aluminum bezels of the headlight switch, heater switch, flasher switch and defroster switch.

Remove the knobs.....then unscrew the aluminum bezels for each switch. MAKE NOTE......some of these screw in bezels....are longer than others on some cars and with some switches......so put them aside marked for where they came from.

When this is done..the switches....still attached to all of their wires.....will drop out of the way....

So you have the heater lever slides to remove and one pair of wires.....they only reach to the switch. Then you have a dash light wire that goes under the hoop under the glove box....remove that hoop. I remove the glove box door as well.

There is a large phillips screw under each side defroster vent. ...then the two metal stanchions down near the defroster slider....pull out the four plastic tubes from fan to vents....pull the two upper defroster units loose.

There is actually MUCH more work to do under the dash that you need to be ready to do.....or removing the dash will be very false economy....and you will be doing it again...and again....ask me how I know how to get tje dash out so well .

1. Get the seals from west coast metric to do the wipers. Once the dash is out the wiper unit is easy to reach. Pull it out....remove the wiper shafts and clean and grease them. Put new grease in the gearbox.

2. Fix your clock...easy to do. There are several threads or we can get into it here. Get on line and buy some clock oil on line. Its cheap. Dont use WD40 or sewing machine oil.

3.be ready to pull out the fan unit and replace the foam to make the unit,seal because everey unit I have seen....the foam is crumbled and cold air leaks.

4. Do the transmission fluid lube trick to the glove box and both fan operating cables....they will never be this easy to reach again.

5. Go ahead....and snap the plastic studs off the sash fan cable mounts....and replace them with steel screws...takes 10 minutes. If not...they will sooner or later snap by themselves. ....leaving you with your vent wide open in freezing weather. Ask me how I know....so fix it now.

6.personally. ....I would go out and buy all new instrument light bulbs and just replace them all now.

7. If you need a new master cylinder. ...now is the perfect time because its easy to reach.

8. If your pedals ars squeaky or rattle side to side.....now is the best time to replace the bushings and grease everything.

9.now is the time to replace you blue brake fluid hose. It will be right in front of you.

10. Now is the best time to replace the steering donut if its rotted....it will never be easier.

11. When you remove the fan unit to change the foam....clean out leaves and kill any rust you find. You will never have easier reach.

12. This is a big one.....all 411 and 412 have poor defrosting of the front windshield.....because the dustpan shaped defroster vents up near the glass are partially blocked by their screen and angle they are mounted. I fixed this with a screw and some sealant. Works 100% better.

Ray

[titan3c]

OK---Since my master cylinder needs attention, and my heater controls also need attention, and my clock doesn't work(and just learned it controls the heater timer), and my dash has the usual cracks I would like to do this same project.

I followed and studied this procedure step by step, and feel I understand, and can do this with some questions along the way. Right now I have the following questions.

In removing the steering wheel did you mean the column too? Somehow I miss seeing how the dash comes loose after all this is done. Then after doing all this where does one find a new dash? I think I know the answer to that----start looking for a doner ha. Or I guess redo the old one somehow. Bob

[ClassicCamper]

Thanks Ray, very helpful. Any feedback as to where the fusebox is situated with the A/C unit attached to the bottom of the dash?

Anyone with pics??

Thanks
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

[ClassicCamper]

Thus far, the 412 is my favorite VW project yet. I must be getting old as I thought the 412 was going to be an easier restore because it was a non-rusty runner. Well, not so. However, I picked my Westy up in a swamp with weeds growing through the bottom for $250.00, my SB was plucked out of a junkyard full of rust (except the foam panels of death behind the rear vents), and my vert was a habitat for small animals in the woods behind my grandmother's house for years. It's white top was green and full of holes. However, the vert did have to be rescued as it was my ride back in high school. I had to save them all. After years of doing VW rebuilds as a side job, trading parts, fabricatng and selling parts I was gradually able to fund bringing them back from the dead:

All 3 of them are great runners. I even put A/C and heated seats in the 74 SB, along with reverting it back to its original autostick. Heck, this has nothing to do with my 412 except for the fact that I think I'm lovin it the most. Funds are tight, but I want to give it the same TLC as I did the others. My goal this summer is to have a video of all 16 cylinders of air-cooled wonder running simulaneously; just love the dubs.

So, here was tonight's adventure: temperature here at the time was 12 degrees (-11 C). I turned on BA4 in timer mode and returned abt 10 min later. Approached car, and heard fuel pump tick-tick ticking. Good sign. Got inside and the chill was certainly off. Guessing about 50 degrees (10 C). Very happy. I primed the pump with a few key turns and the engine kicked right over and ran for about 12 seconds and stalled. It always takes exactly two starts to get it running. No more, no less. Ray, if it kills me, I'm going to have her start on the first try like yours would and I'm sure as your current project will. I'll worry about that at another time. The picture is not very remarkable, but it is me happily sitting in my BA4 pre-heated wagon:

The car took off and drove beautifully. I was at 55 MPH in no time and seriously enjoyed every moment. The engine gives me just enough power to keep up with today's traffic (unlike its VW siblings) plus the headlights are unparalleled to the others. A few issues though: the door seals leak badly. I did read that a beetle seal will retrofit on it, however, the doors seem nothing alike. Is this true? Also, these 3/4 ton shocks suck. It feels like the rear of the car is being slammed into the road when I hit bumps. They need to go. I even wonder about the 1/2 ton shocks, but trust the credible folks on the forums here that they will be fine. I do favor a very soft ride though, short of bottoming out! I'll go into a little bit more detail under the correct category later. Final note about those shocks- they are new KYB gas-adjust. If anyone wants them, I'll pay it forward and give them to whomever needs them. Just pay to ship; I could use some good karma. PM me, and we'll sync up.

So, despite that, ride was awesome. Got to my destination and had about 15 minutes of shopping to do. Now 10 degrees out. Left heater running on the timer. Came out to car, heater fuel pump still ticking. Stopped to take proud owner shot:

Got in car, temp 67 degrees. Very happy. Slammed door -- main heater fuse blows. This happened once before. Usually, my overheat fuse will blow, but now the main heater fuse is joining the chorus. I'm hoping when I put in new dash (thanks again, Hakon) that problem will be fixed. If anyone has ideas what would cause that, I'm all ears. Also, when this fault occurs, I need to wait about 3-4 minutes before restarting system with fuel pump OR the main fuse will blow again. However, if I install the main fuse and just leave it in blower/cool down mode (i.e. thermostat in coolest position) system will run. Again, this main fuse oddly enough blows when I slam door after its been running a while. My gut is telling me that system must be running on the hot side. I may take an unscientific approach and reduce the flow of fuel from the pump and see what happens.

After fumbling through fuses and getting system operational again, drive home was just great. Snowing pretty hard, and I know I've stated before, it really does well in the snow. Good traction, excellent braking and handling. By this time, the gas heat was cranking and it felt nice inside the car. So, I sat on the driveway and just took in the gesamt genuss:

One thing I'll also need to address is that the car idles best and most smoothly when the gray ECU knob is turned all the way anti-clockwise. I know as a rule of thumb, that knob should reside in the middle, but that's not happening. More tuning needed. Finally, as icing on the cake got a shipment today of NOS window seals with the groove for the trim thanks to PBNJ. He's a class act to work with. Thanks for reading, another great journey; looking forward to getting the bugs out. - Ron
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

Very nice!

That door slam thing is telling you something. Very astute to notice.

Yes....I thinks its runnkng a little hot....and I still think its a dead short thats happening. I still think its related to the overheat switch. You need to pull it out and inspect and test. Ray

[ClassicCamper]

Agreed. Gonna do that and reduce flow of pump and see what happens.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[ClassicCamper]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I was able to drive her around for around 300 miles in the last few days. Many of those miles were spent driving to body shops during lunch trying to get a rough estimate as to what it will cost to get this car painted. I'm saving $$ as best I can to get this done. This has been the most disheartening part of the resto, FYI. So far, each place I stopped at said that they basically won't touch the car with a 10-foot pole, or it makes no sense to paint a car that has such a limited source of parts.
A common contention was 'We're never gonna know what we find underneath until we start taking things off'. One gent quoted me 19K, another looked the car up online and in so many words said 'why the hell would you want to paint a $1,500 car, at best that's a rolling fire hazard?' (he inquired about the heater that was running in cool down mode when he was looking it over, so I explained the Eberspacher system to him). He somehow surmised that the car is going to explode I guess. I thought sourcing parts and paying attention to 411/412 veterans' Samba posts was going to be my biggest pain point....heck no. The painters (or lack there of) are.

I remember early on reading some advice from Ray G. In a nutshell, he stressed not to hop in the car and drive it around without doing your homework first. Perfect example: the front-end. It was designed poorly and great at the same time. So, I took the advice and replaced the correct parts, so the 'unobtanium' parts don't self-destruct. No easy task, but done, and damn happy I did it. I followed suit with all other mechanical must-do's. All logical, and I invested the time and money. SO, my point is----- several of these painters are basically laughing at me for putting forth all this effort and sweat equity into a 'worthless' car. A big shout out to those shops, made me feel great. &?@holes.

So, in total, I went to either 8 or 9 painters and am pretty discouraged so far. I told these guys what resto work I did to the car as I was pretty proud of myself. Many of the estimators seemed to think I should have went to them first to know what I was getting myself into.

Sorry, I needed to rant, and seemed like this was the best place to do it. I'm a pretty happy go lucky kind of guy but my painting quest has me bummed out currently. One thing I do know -- this car will never go to Maaco. Any words of advice, wisdom, suggestions about paint would be appreciated. There is not a speck of rust on the car, it's from Cali. It does however, have a poor paint job on it IMHO and needs some very minor dings fixed:

On the brighter side, the car ran super. I still need to address the transmission shifting from 1-2. Its smooth as silk when cold, but when it heats up, its rougher than I'd like. So that's an easy fix, not a big deal. It also has a slight oil leak. I think its the rear seal. I can deal with it until engine needs a rebuild, I'll just keep a keen eye on it. Engine ran strong, every once in a while, the idle will oscillate up and down. It happens completely randomly. Next time I'm in engine compartment, I'm going to adjust that dashpot, now that I know how to do it. Aside from that- awesome riding in that car. I love it. Looks like next '412 these days' posts are going to be centered around dash removal and A/C installation. Here she is after yesterdays road-trippin:

Oh yes- if anyone can recommend a paint place around the NY/NJ area, I'm all ears. Willing to drive out of state at this point. Thanks, - Ron
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

Don't be put off about Maaco. They are all privately owned. Each one is different. There are some people at some shops that have awesome skills.

If you are finding this issue with the paint shops you are visiting....then there are others customers they are losing to places like Macco.

Just go in and tell them what you would like to have done.

Also....to save money....have the car towed to them on a flatbed....with all the glass out and all the trim and lights out....bumpers off.

Pre-mask really critical areas yourself...like the factory decals.

Also to really save money....you could set up your own small garage or backyard paint booth to do items like the inside of the doors, the front hot and the rear hood.

Those are small enough jobs that you could do them yourself with a cheap paint gin and some time....or its possible that if they are like many well kept type 4 cars...the interior and under hood paint may be good enough as is.

If they are only painting the outer shell.....it should not be that expensive.

Or you could strip the outer to metal yourself so any should would "know" what they have underneath.

Ray

[[email protected]]

Most of these shops are looking for insurance work that's where the money is for them. They don't want to tie a bay up for weeks that they would do when time allows.
Also as Ray mentioned do it yourself, the type 4s had a 2 stage paint that I think is much easer to spray than single stage.


My 2 cents

[ClassicCamper]

Great feedback. Im definately going to take the glass off, pre-mask and have it flat-bedded to a painter. If you think Maaco isn't all that bad, I'll run it over to one and see what they say. The paint on it now has a slight grainy texture to it, so I'm presuming Maaco is going to have to do some sanding. I wonder if this is included in some of their packages at a reasonable cost. Also have to see if they fix small dings.

I'll see how that goes and let you know. I've been driving it all day just for the pleasure of it.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

[ClassicCamper]

Ok folks, this is GREAT feedback, thanks. I think I have a paint game plan that I can afford. Here is how I'm planning on tackling: (feedback welcome)

1) I'll remove all glass, door panels, light fixtures, aluminum trim, seats, carpet, sills, badges, trunk carpeting, etc..

2) Next, get her media blasted. (Walnut shells). I had a bad experience with a bus resto I did. Came back from sand blaster looking like it was hit with a barrage of golf balls. So, understandably, this part scares me. Aside from outside car, I'm going to need the following areas blasted: inside trunk and metal just inside doors over the top of the door panels and door jambs. They are going to have to remove the pinstriping that was placed over where the beltline trim once went. I'll eventually hunt trim down and install in due time.

3) Next, I'm going to have to have a body shop look for dings and dimples and have them pulled out and/or filled. (Unless Maaco does light body work, could use some feedback here)

4) After body work, tow car home and mask the heck out of it. (By this time , I'l have an estimate on-hand from a Maaco-like paint shop.) I'd like the car to be a bit more shiny than stock, so I'll coordinate that with paint folks.

5) I'm going to buy a spare set of headlight bezels and have one pair of them painted my car's color (marathon blue). This way, I'll have two sets in opposing colors.

6) Per Ray's suggustion, I'm not going to install the new dash until all of the sanding, filling, priming and painting have been resolved.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

A couple of things to think about.

This makes the work harder on you.....but....many people remove doors and fenders. Remove all of the hardware from the doors and take them down and have them hot tank stripped. That may be less risk.

You need to find a media blaster shop that specifically notes they do classic cars......not just some media blaster outfit that sometimes does cars. They need to know what tbey cant do.

If they work too hard they can overheat lanels panels and warp them.

Or.....as noted.....if you are having the front hood, doors, fenders and back hatches solvent stripped.......the rest you could do with stripper. Its work....but its a sure method ro make sure nothing gets damaged.

As for paint getting shinier... ..really.....the metallic paints on these cars were about as shiny as shiny paint gets....when new. You have the same color car as mine....L96M marathon blue.

It can be a little shinier than stock.....if the basecoat is applied first....then after the paint cures for X amount of time.....you color sand and polish the laint to a very high gloss.....then take it in for degreasing and clearcoat.

But .....I know exactly what you are thinking. This is a REALLY nice color. I am contemplating......having some half pint samples made when I get to the paint stage.....maybe four of them.

I would like to add 1% of pearl white to each sample.....progressively greater up to 4%. Then mask a stripped spare front hood I have....and spray or have sprayed the samples. Let dry, polish and then clearcoat all four then polish again. I dont want to noticably change or whiten the color. I want to increase the depth of the finish. Ray