Neil's bubbletop volksrod build

[Jacks]

Top hinges from a Sterling kit car?

_________________
Jack Staggs
Actual name

[TDCTDI]

Saab 900s had a hinge mechanism that slid the hood foward about 1.5' & cantilevered the hood off the front, much like the Buick did. 1980/90s BMW 3 & 5 series did too but with less foward travel.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[TDCTDI]

1999-2005 Jetta & passats have a nice, compact articulating hinge "cartridge".

_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[TDCTDI]

But possibly the nicest would be a 2006-2010 Passat trunk hinge, it has a constant arc that allows it to operate through a 1"ish hole.

The mounting point of the pivot would darn near be beside the hood hinges & possibly be the least obtrusive.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[nshaddox]

Lots of good ideas here. Wish something like those Passat hinges would work but have a feeling that they wouldn't for the same reasons I couldn't get the stock style hinges to work. Even tried extending the stock hinges with deeper and longer v sections to push pivot point as far under the cowl as it can go without hitting the tank.

Went to pick and pull today looking for options. Space is so limited in the cockpit of this thing and most hinges take up even more space and also do a pretty good job of blocking access to my fuse panel.

Cut off precious mounting plates and tried mocking up some Volvo hood hinges this afternoon. Third attempt so far was closest to working but still running into issues at about a foot of lift in the back. I think there is room to move the Volvo hinges forward and up a bit which should help, but won't know until tomorrow if it will solve my problems. Down side is there will be no way to hide them nicely and they come pretty close to steering wheel. Also have to install them at angles to each other rather than parallel due to space constraints which might be causing some binding issues in the arc that are contributing to the lift issues. I can't tell yet because I haven't managed to get enough lift yet.

[VeeDubWolf]

Hmm, a tricky engineering problem, is there more space to the rear or sides if a agreeable solution cannot be found for the front?
Looking at all these interesting hinges makes me think I might put something non-stock on the hood of one of my bugs when I finally get around to working on them, since I don't like banging my head on it! XD
_________________
Two Bugs-
'70 rust-bucket sunroof sedan
'69 PO hack-job special
-Plus a wide assortment of various parts'n'junk

[TDCTDI]

The Passat style hinge would work if the pivot mounted between the hood hinge & the outer body panel & was attached to the bubble near the 30*ish angle toward the leading edge & be the least obtrusive in the cabin area. Or could be used on the rear of the bubble to hinge rearward. Toward the leading or trailing edge of the bubble while needing more support, would get the hinges out of the way for getting in/out & eliminate some of the soft tissue pinch/scissor action.

They're also assisted by either springs or hood struts which I'm sure would be a nice factor.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[TDCTDI]

Or a simple hinge in the center of the leading or trailing edge & a pair of linear actuators at 3 & 6 O'clock.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[nshaddox]

Even less room to hide hinges on the back. I think I know now why most bubble cars I've seen have a simple single hinge on one end. Passat style might work if built specifically for this car but I would hesitate to use them straight off a Passat because I doubt the arc is correct and also suspect they wouldn't be strong enough for the bubble load v. The Passat deck lid. Might have to have some thicker tubes bent up if I can't figure something else out. Probably should still think about this route for a long term solution since it is the cleanest look for sure.

Feeling lucky today. Might only be a few more attempts away from success? Will post some pictures later either way.

[TDCTDI]

I've got a Yakima car top carrier that has a really neat hinge device that allows the lid to be opened from either side, I don't think it would be possible, but it would be cool as hell if you could pull it off.

http://www.orsracksdirect.com/yakima-skybox-12-cargo-box-8007334.html
At about 1:10 in the video shows it opening from either side.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[nshaddox]

so photo update from last couple of days of frustration.

first the issue with stock length hinges illustrating location of pivot at stock length compared to bubble peak

naturally I thought I could just lengthen the stock arms to fix the issue. any increase in length also requires deeper 'v'ing by same amount, per pictures

rough formed 4 'v's and finished 2 of them, spliced those 2 into the stock hinges, modified mount locations on the body, and failed to get bubble to lift still so scrapped the idea. even with hinges as far up and forward as they will go before hitting tank, peak of bubble doesn't clear cowl.

went to pick and pull looking for options.

the olds aurora hinges were cool because they are so compact. Volvo and Cadillac rear deck hinges are actually very similar in 4 bar geometry, but figured i'd pick up both. Volvo front hood hinges looked most period correct with the big spring and also had an interesting scissoring set up that gives more lift with less forward/backward travel.

started with the Volvo front hood set up, first attempt with these failed.

moved them up level with bubble bottom flange, failed.

moved them as far forward as they would go after this and failed again. realized that all these style hinges need to be installed parallel to each other or they will bind since an angle in the horizontal position of the mounting bars goes parallel as they reach vertical.

thought maybe I could mount 4 bar linkages on 'a' pillars and then make a 'Passat style' riser from there up to the bubble to solve my problem.
Cadillac hinges fit the best.

riser down mockup

riser up mockup

this looked really promising. hinges mounted parallel, plenty of travel at end of riser, best interior clearances. however I tried tacking in place on bubble flange in three different locations and never got as much lift as even the stock extended hinges or the Volvo front hood hinges.

I feel like I keep getting closer to the answer but i'm not there yet. will probably have to make my own linkages. heim joints on the ends of all the bars should solve the binding issue if i'm not mistaken. the answer is probably some combination of all the ideas. linkage mounted on 'a' pillar, scissor style linkage terminating in double 'Passat style' risers. after 3 days in the heat though I am beginning to think that I should take the trouble to really do the design work before fabricating. tricky endeavor though since everything on the car is curved or angled pretty much.[/list]

[TDCTDI]

Look closer at the Passat style hinge, the arc of the arm matches the radius of the straight part. The hinge pivot could tuck under the bubble mating area of the body & the other end where it attaches to the bubble would be just on the inside of the mating surface, out of the interior compartment & still parallel.

If you mount the pivot point just foward of the leading edge of the dome, you'll get the clearance you need.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[Firetruck]

Hi Neil,

I hope my English is well enough for you to understand my explanation.

Key to all solutions is that the hinges have to be working parallel. You have found that out already.

The easiest way would be to weld a single hinge to the "nose" of your windshield. That would keep you away from any clearance-trouble. But it would be rather shaky and not nice to look at.

A solution with two hinges along the turning line of the single hinge (at the nose of the windshield) would be much stronger but also MUCH uglier than the simple solution with one hinge.

The hidden solution you tried (copy of the Passat hinge) is a bit tricky because of the offset to the turning point of the simple solution. Since it is supposed to be hidden, you would at least want to put it under the sheet-metal behind the hood. That offset (a1) will bring the bubble forward when open (a2) AND backward when closed (a3). What a pest!

Please note that the hinge is shaped like a quarter circle. The rounded part must be longer by the amount of the offset a1 than the straight part.

The trick is to move the turning point forward (a4) by the amount of the offset. That will leave the bubble in place when closed and brings it forward twice the offset when opened - that is neglectable I think.

You might have to zoom in the drawing to be able to read a1-a4, sorry.

You are doing great! It is a feast when I spot a new post of your incredible build!

Greetings
Tim
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On the seventh day, God drove a VW Bus.

[TDCTDI]

Firetruck's illustration is exactly what I was suggesting

The (A) distance needs to be just a bit longer than the distance from the leading edge of the bubble to the mounting point of the bubble. Once you have that, you can use that as the "ID" to draw an arc & then add 1" (or however thick you want the arc to be (I used that business card as a compass)). This appears to be what you are trying to accomplish with the modified beetle hinge.

As you have found, the hinges will need to be parallel unless you were to use a spherical end (heim joint)on the pivot point.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[mfergel]

This is why I thought the Buick hinges would work. Because you could lift the bubble top up as well as having it tilt. As I understand it, the hinge uses more of a cantilever design.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cantilever&biw...ever+hinge
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[Firetruck]

@ mfergel: they would - if positioned close enough to the turning point by the nose of the windshield.

That is Neil's biggest problem: all hinges off hoods and trunk doors work well because of their short distance to the turning point. Hoods and trunk doors are mostly rectangular and the hinges sit in the corners. Neils Bubble has no corners. Where the hinges needed to be there is a big "nothing".

Neil will have to stay close to the turning line (lying just a bit in front of the bubbles nose) or will have to construct arms that reach to that point. The farther he goes back with the link to the bubble's frame - the longer the arms.

The nose sticking out in front is contra-productive because it moves the turning point forward. Hoods and trunk doors mostly have a concave shape there to save travel-way. But it looks so great! Plus frame and bubble are already fabricated - too late to change (bless God for that!).
_________________
On the seventh day, God drove a VW Bus.

[nshaddox]

thanks to everyone for the help with ideas and the time to develop and show the diagrams. there are more space constraints under the bubble than pictures illustrate. keep in mind that the beetle cowl slopes down from the center. this is why I cant get the pivot point more than an inch or two below the bubble frame on a Passat style setup and why the stock extended arms didn't work. no matter where the other geometries are with a simple hinge like that, if the pivot point is below the bubble frame it will pull the frame into the cowl as it lifts. I thought about burying a center hinge in the peak of the bubble frame and then using two arm linkages on either end to help stabilize and lift the bubble, but thought I was so close with the 4 bar linkages on the 'A' pillars that it was worth looking at that some more.

With some modifications to the Cadillac hinges on the a-pillars I've now got something that works. my friend Wheelie Pete came over to help develop a solution in LathCAD.

we ended up having to spread the pivot points on the 'A' pillar about 3," raise them up another 2-3," and spread the outer bar about 4." took a full afternoon of fiddling with the geometry to get something that looked promising, and still a few more iterations on the car to get it to actually work in 3d and not just on the 2d model. forgot to account for clearance between the top bar and the bottom of the bubble flange at the top of its arc and had to move the whole thing down and change arm lengths again. even an 1/8" makes a noticeable difference in the arc. would have taken forever without the model to guess the right solution. big thanks to Pete!

also mocked up headlight mounts, but not sure I'm digging the look. location dictated by need to turn front wheels lock to lock and by swing of hood opening. could maybe push it back and in more if they slid out to allow hood to open, but not sure if I want to do that yet. might just hold off a bit and see how it looks when the car is not in the garage.

i'm going to clean up and final mount the modified Cadillac hinges today and spend some more time developing the risers. mockup was pretty rough...

[Firetruck]

Great solution with those stylish hinges! I like it a lot.

Do the headlights have to be so low by law? And do they have to be so far in front? If not, I would move them over the wheels - near the pivot-point - or even more to the back. Brackets coming out between the hood and the side panel. Maybe another set of little lights at the front will be enough to meet regulations?

I like your LathCAD! I'm afraid it does not come for Mac OS - so I'll stick with InDesign to draw 2d-bubbles in the future.

And now off to have a bubble-bath...
_________________
On the seventh day, God drove a VW Bus.

[nshaddox]

there are a lot of things that aren't necessarily law compliant on this build. however, we have no vehicle inspections here in Michigan so im not too worried about it.

lights look better low and inward in my opinion. still thinking about this but will probably end up holding off on doing anything until the car can be rolled out of the garage.

cleaned up hinges today. took way longer than I thought, lots of cutting, welding, grinding. moved lower mounting location up to just below top pivot. each one of these hinges has had 7 additional pieces welded to it. thats a lot for how small they are I feel like.

also made a pair of mounts that bolt inside the other flanged surface of the hinge assemblies. made out of 1/8"x1"x1" square tube. can see it to the right of the hinge in the next photo. plan is to use more 1/8"x1"x1" square tube leftovers from the bubble frame to make radiused risers that weld to the mounts. I've even got an idea for making a safari type mechanism. not a very graceful idea but still thinking about it.

[TDCTDI]

Very nice! I don't know about the hinges that you used but the Jetta version has weak rivets, with the extra weight & leverage, you might want to check those (?) or just replace them with with quality bolts if possible.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.