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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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So after further research, and talking with the folks at CB Performance and Gary at Rimco I've decided to have the case evaluated further, then hopefully if it checks out, bore it out for 90.5mm cylinders.
Rimco will also be pulling the gallery plugs and doing some machining for full flow. I have not yet decided on what arrangement I'm going to use there. Sort of on the fence about using my stock oil pump and going with the Gene Berg pump cover, or doing the bigger CB full flow 30mm pump and Al cover (I'm not planning on adding a sump to this case) I sort of like the idea of cast iron here, but that's just a gut feeling.
I did end up pulling the head studs using the double nut method. Worked great after soaking the threads in PB blaster all day. Two of the case savers came out, but the threads look fine in the case on first examination so I'm not worried about putting them back on the studs, or just locktiting some new ones in.
I do have one question about my case. There is a football-shaped cover plate bolted onto the back end of the case, bottom right. I somehow missed this when I dismantled the engine. What is it?
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PatsGhia Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2015 Posts: 21 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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That cover is to block off the type 3 oil filler hole. |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Today I got my case back from Rimco. Gary bored the case for 90.5/92mm cylinders, drilled and tapped for full flow, and align bored the mains to .060" over.
So, I've been reading up the past couple weeks on how to proceed. So far I haven't spent a dime on any parts. I have made a couple decisions though. First, I'm going to delete my heat exchangers for J pipes. The reason for this is, I want to up my headers to 1-1/2" dia., and to do that I'd have to buy new heat exchangers. I figure I can save a few hundred here. We'll see how we like it without heat. If we can't stand it, we'll spring for some higher performance heat boxes down the road.
I'm going to go with the Tri Mill Hot Dog muffler, since its the only one I've found that has the pea-shooter look, and works with heater boxes. Yeah, I know I said I'm deleting mine, but if I want to put them back, I want the Tri Mill to work with them.
The biggest decision right now is to whether or not to upgrade my crank and flywheel. There is nothing wrong with my stock crank, and I know its okay to use it with this engine. I am however a bit concerned if I do use it, that I should have a rev limiter on the distributor so I don't over 5k rpm with the stock crank. Any advice on this would be much appreciated. Do I really need a better crank and flywheel? Will I notice a difference with one?
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stanovich Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2013 Posts: 191 Location: central coast calif
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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make sure you clean looks like metal chips in your stud/case savers. and blow out all passages. Rimco does great work, you have to prep for assembly |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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I've been doing a fair amount of research on cleaning the case after getting it back from Rimco, and especially how to clean the galleries. Since I'm a complete greenhorn here, I've taken a bunch of pictures of the case and labelled everything to help myself, and hopefully other folks in my position understand where all the galleries are and what they do, along with how I plan to clean them. I've also referred to this excellent thread numerous times.
So if any of you with more experience could confirm/deny some of my labels and processes, I'd be much obliged!
1. #4 bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush
2. #3 bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush
3. #2 bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush
4. #1 bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush
5. Rear cam bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush
6. Middle cam bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush. This has a much larger hole than 5 and 7. Anyone know why?
7. Front cam bearing oil gallery. Clean with bore brush
8. Main gallery for main bearings. This gallery goes clear through the case from front to rear. Clean with a long bore brush.
9. This accesses the control valve bore. Mine is tapped to 10mm. Past the control valve bore this hole narrows to 5mm and allows oil to return to sump when control valve is open. Clean with brush
10. Lifter gallery access. Clean with brush
11. Control valve vent hole (to break vaccuum in valve assembly) Can't clean
12. Oil relief valve. Clean with brush
13. Oil control valve. Clean with brush
14. Oil pressure sensor screws in here. Clean with brush
15. I'm not sure what the purpose of this plug is. Rimco did not pull it. Looks like it intersects with the main gallery and the gallery from the oil cooler.
16. Oil cooler outflow to main gallery. Clean with brush
17. Oil cooler pickup from pump/full flow filter. Clean with brush.
18. Access to the vertical portion of the main gallery that comes from pump/full flow filter. Clean with brush
19. Access to the upper main gallery. Clean with brush.
20. Tapped for return fitting from full flow oil filter. Clean with brush
21. Stepped restrictor plug for #4 bearing gallery. Can't clean this from this end.
22. Access to main gallery. Goes all the way through to label #8.
23. Tin attachment hole
24. I think this is for mounting this case in a Type 3. Not sure.
25. Same purpose as 24?
26. Plug covers access to oil pickup tube from sump. I can't clean this. Should I remove the pickup tube and clean in there? Or leave it alone?
27. Type 3 use
28. Same as 25 and 24?
29. No idea what purpose this serves. Doesn't seem to be anything behind it but empty space.
30. Tin attachment
31. Oil pump intake port from sump pickup tube
32. Oil sump pickup tube
33. Cam journal and gallery? The large hole in the middle is not deep and has no cross holes going to it
34. Cam journal and gallery. This gallery is deep and intersects with lifter gallery. Clean with brush
35. Case saver through drilled. Is thread sealant enough here?
36. Cam oil gallery. Clean with brush.
37. Maybe I'm dense. What is this hole for? I honestly don't remember when I dismantled the engine. It's behind the flywheel, so I'm stumped. |
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Slow 1200 Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2103
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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that's for the TDC sensor , part of the diagnostic system that some cars had in the 70s |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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You've got the bearings numbers backwards #1 is closest to flywheel |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Upon closer examination you don't, my mistake |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Slow 1200 wrote: |
that's for the TDC sensor , part of the diagnostic system that some cars had in the 70s |
Thanks. |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Anybody willing to help out here? I'll repost the numbers where I've asked questions. Thanks.
6. Middle cam bearing oil gallery. Clean with brush. This has a much larger hole than 5 and 7. Anyone know why?
15. I'm not sure what the purpose of this plug is. Rimco did not pull it. Looks like it intersects with the main gallery and the gallery from the oil cooler.
24. I think this is for mounting this case in a Type 3. Not sure.
25. Same purpose as 24?
26. Plug covers access to oil pickup tube from sump. I can't clean this. Should I remove the pickup tube and clean in there? Or leave it alone?
28. Same as 25 and 24?
33. Cam journal and gallery? The large hole in the middle is not deep and has no cross holes going to it
35. Case saver through drilled. Is thread sealant enough here? |
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stanovich Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2013 Posts: 191 Location: central coast calif
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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You have gone this far I would pull plug 26 and clean. its the pickup galley after the screen! take a picture I bet you'll be glad you did |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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I received my big order from CB Performance a couple weeks ago and am gearing up to start the assembly. This is pretty daunting. I've read the Tom Wilson book now probably 3 or 4 times, and spent countless hours here reading up. I think I'm ready.
I still need to clean the oil galleys in my case, so in the meantime I thought I'd get ready to prep my crank for mounting the rods. I have a Harbor Freight engine stand, but nothing for building up the crank. I'm restoring this old lathe in my shop and a light bulb went off. I read about how some folks weld their gland nut to the side of their engine stand, or to a piece of angle iron for mounting in a vise. I had this morse taper kicking around and figured I could weld that to my old gland nut. I drove the 33 Jacob's taper end into the gland nut and welded it up. Then after it cooled I drove the taper/nut into to the lathe tailstock and threaded on the crank. Solid as a rock. I picked up some Plastigauge today and now I'm ready to build up my crank.
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Can anyone help me identify the fasteners in this kit? I'm assuming the short studs (A) and (C) hold the case together around the perimeter, but I'm not sure where the two (C) studs with the unthreaded center sections go. On my case there are three studs that have an unthreaded center section, # 1, 2 and 3. Doesn't explain why there are only two in the CB kit.
I have no clue what the two larger studs labelled B are for.
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9602 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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My guess on the CB HW pack: A are for holding the oil pump to the case; 2 studs per case half. You already have yours in place. M8 x 1.25 threads.
B could be the lower studs that hold the engine case bottom to the transmission. M10 bolts. 1 per case half.
#35- just brush a small amount of Permatex Aviation over the case saver so that the sealant overlaps onto the case, closing the gap to the case.
#24 & 28 are mounting holes for the M10 bolts on a type 2 and 3 rear engine mounting bar. Type 3 cases don't have the oil pressure sensor hole 14, no dipstick (dipstick guide attached at #27!), and the engine case number is along the right case half top seam to the left of the generator stand.
This might have been mentioned already- I did not read through the entire thread- but the "Hecho en Mexico" is a "universal case" which could be utilized and adapted to a type 1, 2 or 3. Original Type 3 cases were all made in Germany and did not have the "Hecho..." casting. |
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PatsGhia Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2015 Posts: 21 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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A = oil pump studs
B = lower engine to trans mount studs
C = fuel pump mount studs |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Rome and PatsGhia,
Thanks for the help! Answers at last. Now I can clean my case and start assembly. |
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Made a little more progress on the build today. I was able to check the oil pickup tube and clean it without pulling the case plug. The machine shop I used did a great job cleaning the case to begin with. So with the pickup tube in good shape I picked up a new 6mm bolt and bolted the pickup tube flange to the sump with a little red locktite.
Also started mocking up the CB thinline sump to see how that installs. Read a bunch on pickup tubes and lengths. Sounds like the end of the pickup tube needs to be 10mm from the inside of the sump lid. Sound right? I have to say, although this is my first build, the look of the hose clamp in there is a bit unsettling. I know folks use them without issue, but still. Seems like there should be a better way to do this. I don't have the capability to braze on a steel extension, so I guess I'm stuck with this. Do I Permatex the extension to the main tube? Loctite the threads on the hose clamp? Advice here would be appreciated.
The sump came with studs and acorn nuts. I'm assuming these are for attaching the sump plate to the sump, and I use the existing studs in my case to attach the sump to the case. My case had regular nuts here before I opened it up, not acorn nuts. I'm assuming the acorn nuts are to prevent the studs from getting beat up from road debris. I'm guessing the crush washers are superfluous under the nuts when attaching the sump to the case. I know the gasket goes between the sump and the case, but the crush washers seem pointless here.
Also have a question about the chromoly head studs I got from CB. I get the 9 long ones. These go in the bottom of the case (, plus one for the deep hole at the top of cyl #4. The three intermediate length studs fill out the rest of the top holes on the left side of the case. The remaining four go on top on the right side. But why are they shorter? I know I'll likely have to cut these to length, so I'm planning on mocking up the long block with the case, cylinders and heads to get the right lengths. Sound right?
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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that will not secure the pickup, and is sure to be a huge problem. If you are going to do it that way, thread a 6mm nut onto the bolt, THEN thread it thru. When you have the length right, tighten the nut down onto the case, sandwiching the pickup into position.
As it is now you have nothing holding the pickup down. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
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Abouna Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2015 Posts: 133 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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Thanks John. Can you elaborate? I guess the pic is a little misleading perhaps. I did thread the bolt in and snug it up tight to the pickup flange. How is a nut on a stud going to hold the pickup better than the head of the bolt? Is the nut somehow putting extra tension on the stud preventing it from possibly unthreading when tightening a nut on from the bottom side? Please explain what's happening here. |
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PatsGhia Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2015 Posts: 21 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Diving In. 1st Engine Rebuild |
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On the head studs, the 4 shortest ones go on the inner holes in the top of the case, and the 3 medium length go into the outer holes (except the deep one at cylinder #3, like you already noted).
On the pickup extension, I think you'll be fine - I had a sump years ago with the same type of extension setup and it worked well. Just make sure the connection is reasonably air-tight so it won't suck lots of air in case of a low oil level.
Build is looking good so far. |
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