Any Ideas About This Leak?? (long)

[Clatter]

Dag,
I get the motor all back together and in, and go to breaking in the cam, and a bunch of oil all comes running out!!

Coming out from the bottom of the bell-housing area;
Engine oil, not trans lube.

Not the first time this has happened,
So it comes out, and the flywheel comes off.
Thought for sure I left out the flywheel o-ring, or mangled the main seal or something.
(or cracked behind #3 or left a galley plug or cam plug out)
But No!
Main seal looks fine. Cam plug and galley plugs all in place.
Flywheel o-ring looks great.
WTF?

Check it out,
That's dry Curil right there running from the main seal, down past the cam plug, down to the wet area at the bottom.
Swear to god, it's not wet there at all...

It was a bunch of oil, too.. Engine oil.

Was expecting to see a wrinkled o-ring, or this area wet, but it's nice and dry and clean...

It really doesn't seem to be coming from anywhere....
it's not dripping from the cooler base and running down.
Doesn't seem to be coming from the cylinder bases.. or the sump-to-case area.
How would it find it's little happy way back up into the inside of the bellhousing if it was any of those anyhow??

This thing never had the crack behind #3.
It didn't come apart for any issue like that, I got water in it while washing it a couple years ago.

Wise wizards or knowledge... Who has my magic bullet?
I have it up on the stand, and can really look closely tomorrow morning..
Don't really have time to get a UV die penetrant kit or something like that.
This thing has to go back together!
What's an old-school trick for finding leaks?
Was thinking of maybe rigging it up to run on the stand without any tin?
maybe blow kitty litter dust or sawdust on it to see where it sticks to show the leak?
What else can I check?

I just _know_ it has to be something stupid!
DOH!
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[croSSeduP]

From the pics you provided it looks to me like it's leaking around the cam plug. Keep in mind that when you run an engine and it gets hot, the leaking oil will run off the engine quite quickly making it look like the oil is coming from nowhere. However, it appears you are using Brad Penn oil, correct? There is a green tinge around the cam plug... Maybe it's time to split the case and install an OEM steel cam plug?
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[modok]

It is possible for the end of the gland nut bore to break into one of the crank oil galleys.

Other questions which you may assault yourself with if desired.
The flywheel looks older than dirt......... did you polish the seal surface? Check the size of where the seal rides? Why is there sealant or some goop residue around the dowel pins there? Why is the main seal installed so shallow.....tryin to get off the old groove? Why is the oil green? How far out of round is the seal bore?
Is the cam oil return passage free and clear or covered by the bearing?

[vwracerdave]

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[modok]

Ah, I see. The flywheel has been bored and sleeved to accept the o-ring. Maybe they didn't get the size right and that's why there is sealant reside there.

If that flywheel could speak what story would it tell??!!

[Clatter]

Thanks for all of the quick responses and wisdom, guys...
Really really really helps to have another set of eyes when I'm cold and tired and dirty and PISSED!

That flywheel does indeed have a long and storied history.
It was an old-school German flywheel chopped way back in the day.
Dig the cool radius chop!
The dowels are 11/32" - match-doweled to the flywheel.
That's why a few of them followed the flywheel out.

I lovingly polished the OD of that seal surface, It may have been taken a bit undersize, but only a smidge.
Why it looks like it has some type of sealant on the face I have no idea.
it's not sealant or glue or... It might be a bit of oil.

The main seal came all the way home upon install.
It's definitely not our villain. It's not shallow, riding up on the radius. BTDT.

How could I not be able to see any oil on the back of the case below the seal?
How would the flywheel be completely dry if the main seal was leaking?

(Yeah, it got bead-blasted, and then sat around in my damp shop for a couple of years. Don't necessarily judge by looks. A shiny Scat 'chromoly forged' one might look better, but...)

The whole motor was together for several thousand miles and leak-free until I washed the car, and then let it sit for a couple of weeks without starting it back up, thereby filling a cylinder with water...

So, the typical issues associated with parts that have never been together before are largely to be avoided (or so I thought).
Like Modok's gland nut oil passage suggestion... that's a good one.

I really, really don't see any oil below the main seal and cam plug.
How to make any leaks show?
What's the old-timer trick to show leaks?

The rubber cam plug.... That's my culprit, maybe.
I have heard bad things about them.
And,
As far as I can remember... that's my first/only one of those..

This is a CB Brazilian 'Supercase' - about 12-15 years old or so.
Does anybody remember if those are the ones that aren't cut for a cam plug groove?
I *think* I had to use the rubber cam plug, because this case wasn't cut for the steel one.
Maybe my exuberance to keep it sealed led to the drain passage getting gooped shut?
Still, swear swear swear it's dry below there.... How to tell?

Admittedly, my eyes aren't the best.
I'm color-blind enough that I can't tell the oil is green.

Maybe one of you with good color vision can see some green leaking around the cam plug?

This really helps me.
All of the regular citizens I associate with would never imagine why I would spend a whole day working on an old car...

Tomorrow I might just fire the motor up with all of the tin off (just for a little while) and run it at 2000RPM or so to see if I can catch it in action..
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Clatter]

[74 Thing]

You're going to have to run it out of the engine. Clean up everything really good and reassemble and use one of the UV dye/light kits or you can spray the case with powder foot spray and you will see where it is coming from.

[modok]

[mark tucker]

did the cam plug go in too far? or did the cam bearing oil relief channel get pluged with little curleys t's?? you sure there isant a slight anount of oil on that main seal?? did you oil the main seal?? look in there to see if the main seal spring has fallen off......well get a new seal and replace it as you probably cant see the spring if it has fallen off. I install my seals flush with the case, no farther. and always oil the seal, you dont need tracksion there fro dry rubber and dry flywheel it will kil the seal. I only use the "O" ring cam plugs.(one of the only good parts bugpoop ever made )

[Clatter]

[OLD VW NUT]

You can do a quick check of that cam plug to see if its leaking without running the motor. Make sure you have plenty of oil in the motor - tip it forward (flywheel end) and let it sit for a time - wipe the area down well. If that cam plug is bad you should see some seepage from it. I've never installed one of those plugs. I've always had great success with the OEM steel ones. That old flywheel is IMO suspect as well.
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[W1K1]

I would be checking that flywheel seal, and the oil drain passage in the case. Looks like the seal is wet in that top picture. Did you grease the seal lip so it didn't start up dry?
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[mark tucker]

if there wasent oil on the flywheel the seal usualy isant leeking. if there is no oil in the gland nut aera thats'good too. it coild also be coming from the case split below the cam plug. you can also pressure up the oil system to see if there is a leek from oil pressure. did you torque the bolts in the proper sequence?? starting with the bolt above the camshaft front bearing that the manul stated will cause a oil leek if not done first.........thats pretty close to where it'sleeken.

[Clatter]

Following up on this one....
Dissection shows (almost?) no evidence of why this happened.

This is all wet because the inside of the case is wet, and it ran all over as the case came apart...

Shows that the drain hole was not blocked by the cam bearing or goops of sealer.
Also shows the main seal drain is clear.

Bummed out to not find a piece of string or clump of cat hair or sealer or sand or something to be causing a leak..!
Got a real good look at the area, before the oil ran all over it, (and then I took a pic) and it looked perfect.

The main seal was perfect, too. 100%.
The flywheel sealing surface is not smooth and shiny, because it was bead-blasted and sat a while.
But, dag. I've seen worse seal surfaces work before, and this one always worked like this.

There was this one little pinch-tit on the flywheel o-ring.
I dunno if this could cause a big ol' leak like I had, though.
Less than a minute of run-time had me a pool of oil the size of a big dinner plate..

So, everything is going off to get tanked again.
I think I'll assemble the cases dry and put a light inside...?

Got a new gasket set, main seal and cam plug on the way.

ANybody out there have any ideas about what else I can check?
I'm all ears, and appreciate any wild ass guesses...

Oh, and thanks to Mark T. for the info on which case bolt to tighten first.
Never heard that one before..
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Type 5 Joe]

I would replace the flywheel... The seal surface is pitted and very old looking.
You want a perfect and highly polished finish that measures on the high side of the tolerance for a long life.

[mark tucker]

deburr those cam lobes while your there..... and dont push the cam plug in so far...might want to use a billet with "O" ring cam plug....oh never mind you case dosent have the groove. just seal it good,not in too far and no oil neer it till it cures...not eazy to do...but not that hard either.besure the case sealer dosent have a gap. I seem to always have a finger somehow wipe a clean path putten them together.....darn fingers. not sure if I need more or less of them . as for the flywheel, either replace it or polish it and possiably use the duel seal somebody sells. that seal is riding in the rusted aera. at the least a good polish is in order. and always oil the id of the seal &od of the crank ..."O" ring too needs some lube not much.

[modok]

Lets take another look at that lifter. Looks like it's worn on only one side. camera tricks? Or has scat still not learned to grind them straight?

[oldschool5er]

Flywheel is pitted right where the seal line is, that for me is a No go. Clipping the seal spring might not prevent it but you can always try it just too see, if it still has leaks after re-assembly.
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