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Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After Repai
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one4house
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After Repai Reply with quote

This weekend I was forced to tackle replacing the bearings and seals on my squareback. Everything was straightforward except for a few things that I want to run by the crew.

When taken apart, we found that the plastic piece that held the bearings inside the race had blown apart and taken the oil seal with it. Here is what I woke up to Thursday morning:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Anyone who thinks that lowered Type 3's do not get enough lubrication can change that thinking now. Looks like the axle bearings get plenty of fluid to them. Smile

After trailering it to my parents shop, we tore into it. The two things that puzzled us were......

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


1. The outer bearing race fits half in the swing axle tube and half in the cap with the 4 bolts. Was the large o-ring supposed to go over the OD of the bearing to seal the axle tube and cap? Or was it supposed to fit on the face of the bearing to seal the front of the bearing and cap?

2: The seal and gasket kits I received had two paper gaskets in each rebuild kit. I could only find one paper gasket when I took it apart: between the cap with the 4 bolts and the front of the brake assembly backing plate. Where does the second gasket go?

What I have, now that the repair is finished, is it is still leaking onto the back of the brake backing plate. It is leaking enough that I think I am going to have to do it again. I just wanted some pointers as to common mistakes that lead to leaks.
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one4house
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

Here are a couple of pictures how it looks now. This is after I drove it to the local car wash, sprayed on degreaser and cleaned everything after the repair was finished. I drove the 26 miles from my parents house to my apartment and took these pictures.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Drivers

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Passenger

I uploaded a few extra images to my gallery.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=one4house
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?

I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.

Make sense?

Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?

I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission.


New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.

As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

one4house wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?

I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission.


New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.

As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled.


I think Tram's got the answer based on what you said here...this is exactly how I overfilled mine - up in the air.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

one4house wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?

I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission.


New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.

As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled.


Trust me... it is, especially if the axles were dangling. See my previous post.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.

Make sense?

Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve.


Tram,

that does make sense.

So I need to put jack stands under the axle tubes to level them to ride height before I climb under and fill.

So, you guys think it is a simple case of way too much gear oil?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

You guys are fast. Typing responses when I am typing responses. I appreciate the fast help.

I am going to head out to my parents to empty and refill the transmission. This time I will make sure and have the car on 4 jack stands, looking level and make sure the jack stands are holding the axle tubes at right height and not letting them dangle.

I'll report back in a hour or so.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

House- do this:

Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)

Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.

Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.

Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

one4house wrote:
Tram wrote:
When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.

Make sense?

Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve.


Tram,

that does make sense.

So I need to put jack stands under the axle tubes to level them to ride height before I climb under and fill.

So, you guys think it is a simple case of way too much gear oil?


Well, that's where you start.... or would you rather risk replacing the seals over and over with the same results? Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
House- do this:

Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)

Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.

*Put a basin under the fill plug area*

Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.

Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes.



Minor but necessary, no? Very Happy
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Tram
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Tram wrote:
House- do this:

Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)

Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.

*Put a basin under the fill plug area*

Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.

Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes.



Minor but necessary, no? Very Happy


Depends on how confident you are that it's not overfilled...
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one4house
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

What is the next thing to check?

Unfortunately, it was not overfilled. I decided the easiest thing to do was climd under the car with it on the ground, loosen the fill plug and see how overfilled it was. Not a single drop came out which sucks because that was the easy fix.

I dipped my pinky in the hole to make sure that the fluid was close, and it was right under the bottom of the hole.

EDIT: Any ideas on these questions?

1. The outer bearing race fits half in the swing axle tube and half in the cap with the 4 bolts. Was the large o-ring supposed to go over the OD of the bearing to seal the axle tube and cap? Or was it supposed to fit on the face of the bearing to seal the front of the bearing and cap?

2: The seal and gasket kits I received had two paper gaskets in each rebuild kit. I could only find one paper gasket when I took it apart: between the cap with the 4 bolts and the front of the brake assembly backing plate. Where does the second gasket go?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

kokanee wrote:
I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap


I'm starting to think that too, but the bentley does not mention a gasket when it talks about backing plate install.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think I have the large oRing in the wrong place. I have another seal set on the way. I will go next weekend and take it all apart again. That way I can see what looks right and what looks wrong. It shouldn't take long to take apart since the hardest part of the operation was swapping out the bearings. They are fine. I just need to get the thing to seal up.

I should change my username from "one4house" to "does it twice." For some reason, most of my projects seem to need a repeat on this car. I should also rename the car "deuce."
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

one4house wrote:
kokanee wrote:
I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap


I'm starting to think that too, but the bentley does not mention a gasket when it talks about backing plate install.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think I have the large oRing in the wrong place. I have another seal set on the way. I will go next weekend and take it all apart again. That way I can see what looks right and what looks wrong. It shouldn't take long to take apart since the hardest part of the operation was swapping out the bearings. They are fine. I just need to get the thing to seal up.

I should change my username from "one4house" to "does it twice." For some reason, most of my projects seem to need a repeat on this car. I should also rename the car "deuce."


The large "O" ring fits over the bearing. 2 paper gaskets are used, 1 in front of the backing plate, and 1 on the rear side of the backing plate. To find this out, you have to look in Transmission and rear axle, along with Brakes. It's about the only real fault I've found with Bentley. Plus I just spent a couple of hours with a buddy on the phone in Louisanna going thru this on his 66 Ghia.
Yes, the bearing goes ~half way into the axle tube, while the "cover" (as Bentley calls it) gets the other half.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

Bob,

Thanks for the input. Would not having a gasket between the axle and baking plate cause a leak at the seep hole on the from cover?

It is good to know I have the large oring in the right place.

I guess I will have to break it down, install the other gaskets and see if that cures the problem.

Thanks ataraxia, tram, Bob and kokanee. I have a few things to check over. At least it is not leaking so bad I can't drive it. it's just annoying to put the work in an still have the problem. Gotta love them old cars.

I'll keep y'all updated.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

one4house wrote:
Bob,

Thanks for the input. Would not having a gasket between the axle and baking plate cause a leak at the seep hole on the from cover?

It is good to know I have the large oring in the right place.

I guess I will have to break it down, install the other gaskets and see if that cures the problem.

Thanks ataraxia, tram, Bob and kokanee. I have a few things to check over. At least it is not leaking so bad I can't drive it. it's just annoying to put the work in an still have the problem. Gotta love them old cars.

I'll keep y'all updated.


Yes it could, as it's designed to get a paper gasket there. If you're getting oil leaking out of the weep hole, then you probably still need to tighten the axle nut up to spec (217 ft lbs), as you need to squish the small "O" ring, along with seating the crush washer.
At least you know the weep hole is clear. Wink
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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one4house
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R Reply with quote

We have a impact that goes to 240 ft/lb at 100psi. That is what I tightened it with this time. I might go by and give it another go just to make sure before I take it all apart again. That might be a simple fix.
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