Author |
Message |
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:41 pm Post subject: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After Repai |
|
|
This weekend I was forced to tackle replacing the bearings and seals on my squareback. Everything was straightforward except for a few things that I want to run by the crew.
When taken apart, we found that the plastic piece that held the bearings inside the race had blown apart and taken the oil seal with it. Here is what I woke up to Thursday morning:
Anyone who thinks that lowered Type 3's do not get enough lubrication can change that thinking now. Looks like the axle bearings get plenty of fluid to them.
After trailering it to my parents shop, we tore into it. The two things that puzzled us were......
1. The outer bearing race fits half in the swing axle tube and half in the cap with the 4 bolts. Was the large o-ring supposed to go over the OD of the bearing to seal the axle tube and cap? Or was it supposed to fit on the face of the bearing to seal the front of the bearing and cap?
2: The seal and gasket kits I received had two paper gaskets in each rebuild kit. I could only find one paper gasket when I took it apart: between the cap with the 4 bolts and the front of the brake assembly backing plate. Where does the second gasket go?
What I have, now that the repair is finished, is it is still leaking onto the back of the brake backing plate. It is leaking enough that I think I am going to have to do it again. I just wanted some pointers as to common mistakes that lead to leaks. _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?
I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.
Make sense?
Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
ataraxia wrote: |
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?
I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission. |
New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.
As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled. _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
one4house wrote: |
ataraxia wrote: |
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?
I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission. |
New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.
As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled. |
I think Tram's got the answer based on what you said here...this is exactly how I overfilled mine - up in the air. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
one4house wrote: |
ataraxia wrote: |
Did you reuse the seals or install new ones?
I've had this issue twice in the past - one was a bad seal because I screwed up the installation of it and the other time I'd way overfilled the transmission. |
New seal kits. They came with the large o-ring, small o-ring, wavy washer, oil seal and two paper gaskets.
As far as overfilling, the car was on jack stands and pitched forward, but I had a very nice hand-held pump to pump in the oil. This allows me to hold the refill tube to the top of the fill hole. I stopped pumping once I had a single drop come out. I don't believe that it is overfilled. |
Trust me... it is, especially if the axles were dangling. See my previous post. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
Tram wrote: |
When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.
Make sense?
Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve. |
Tram,
that does make sense.
So I need to put jack stands under the axle tubes to level them to ride height before I climb under and fill.
So, you guys think it is a simple case of way too much gear oil? _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
You guys are fast. Typing responses when I am typing responses. I appreciate the fast help.
I am going to head out to my parents to empty and refill the transmission. This time I will make sure and have the car on 4 jack stands, looking level and make sure the jack stands are holding the axle tubes at right height and not letting them dangle.
I'll report back in a hour or so. _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
House- do this:
Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)
Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.
Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.
Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
one4house wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
When you fill the transaxle, the car needs to be level on stands with the axles supported. If you are leaving the axles dangle, you are filling them first on the angle and your trans is actually way over full when you think it is full. If the rear end is up but the front is on the ground you are over filling it even more. Lowered a couple clicks magnifies the effect when the car is on the ground.
Make sense?
Your car isn't lowered enough to make the rear axle bearings starve. |
Tram,
that does make sense.
So I need to put jack stands under the axle tubes to level them to ride height before I climb under and fill.
So, you guys think it is a simple case of way too much gear oil? |
Well, that's where you start.... or would you rather risk replacing the seals over and over with the same results? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ataraxia Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 4504 Location: Illinois
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
Tram wrote: |
House- do this:
Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)
Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.
*Put a basin under the fill plug area*
Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.
Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes. |
Minor but necessary, no? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
ataraxia wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
House- do this:
Back the car onto ramps at the rear end. This assures your axles stay level. (If you notice, jacking it up and then dumping it on ramps still leaves you some positive camber in the rear.)
Level the front to the rear with your floor jack.
*Put a basin under the fill plug area*
Take the fill plug out and walk away for a half hour.
Reinstall fill plug and let us know how it goes. |
Minor but necessary, no? |
Depends on how confident you are that it's not overfilled... _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
What is the next thing to check?
Unfortunately, it was not overfilled. I decided the easiest thing to do was climd under the car with it on the ground, loosen the fill plug and see how overfilled it was. Not a single drop came out which sucks because that was the easy fix.
I dipped my pinky in the hole to make sure that the fluid was close, and it was right under the bottom of the hole.
EDIT: Any ideas on these questions?
1. The outer bearing race fits half in the swing axle tube and half in the cap with the 4 bolts. Was the large o-ring supposed to go over the OD of the bearing to seal the axle tube and cap? Or was it supposed to fit on the face of the bearing to seal the front of the bearing and cap?
2: The seal and gasket kits I received had two paper gaskets in each rebuild kit. I could only find one paper gasket when I took it apart: between the cap with the 4 bolts and the front of the brake assembly backing plate. Where does the second gasket go? _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kokanee Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 329 Location: Washougal WA
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap |
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
kokanee wrote: |
I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap |
I'm starting to think that too, but the bentley does not mention a gasket when it talks about backing plate install.
I think I have the large oRing in the wrong place. I have another seal set on the way. I will go next weekend and take it all apart again. That way I can see what looks right and what looks wrong. It shouldn't take long to take apart since the hardest part of the operation was swapping out the bearings. They are fine. I just need to get the thing to seal up.
I should change my username from "one4house" to "does it twice." For some reason, most of my projects seem to need a repeat on this car. I should also rename the car "deuce." _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
one4house wrote: |
kokanee wrote: |
I believe one paper seal goes behind the backing plate and one under the cap |
I'm starting to think that too, but the bentley does not mention a gasket when it talks about backing plate install.
I think I have the large oRing in the wrong place. I have another seal set on the way. I will go next weekend and take it all apart again. That way I can see what looks right and what looks wrong. It shouldn't take long to take apart since the hardest part of the operation was swapping out the bearings. They are fine. I just need to get the thing to seal up.
I should change my username from "one4house" to "does it twice." For some reason, most of my projects seem to need a repeat on this car. I should also rename the car "deuce." |
The large "O" ring fits over the bearing. 2 paper gaskets are used, 1 in front of the backing plate, and 1 on the rear side of the backing plate. To find this out, you have to look in Transmission and rear axle, along with Brakes. It's about the only real fault I've found with Bentley. Plus I just spent a couple of hours with a buddy on the phone in Louisanna going thru this on his 66 Ghia.
Yes, the bearing goes ~half way into the axle tube, while the "cover" (as Bentley calls it) gets the other half. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
Bob,
Thanks for the input. Would not having a gasket between the axle and baking plate cause a leak at the seep hole on the from cover?
It is good to know I have the large oring in the right place.
I guess I will have to break it down, install the other gaskets and see if that cures the problem.
Thanks ataraxia, tram, Bob and kokanee. I have a few things to check over. At least it is not leaking so bad I can't drive it. it's just annoying to put the work in an still have the problem. Gotta love them old cars.
I'll keep y'all updated. _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
one4house wrote: |
Bob,
Thanks for the input. Would not having a gasket between the axle and baking plate cause a leak at the seep hole on the from cover?
It is good to know I have the large oring in the right place.
I guess I will have to break it down, install the other gaskets and see if that cures the problem.
Thanks ataraxia, tram, Bob and kokanee. I have a few things to check over. At least it is not leaking so bad I can't drive it. it's just annoying to put the work in an still have the problem. Gotta love them old cars.
I'll keep y'all updated. |
Yes it could, as it's designed to get a paper gasket there. If you're getting oil leaking out of the weep hole, then you probably still need to tighten the axle nut up to spec (217 ft lbs), as you need to squish the small "O" ring, along with seating the crush washer.
At least you know the weep hole is clear. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
one4house Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2009 Posts: 1121 Location: Sherman Texas
|
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Bearing and Seal Replacement. Still Leaking After R |
|
|
We have a impact that goes to 240 ft/lb at 100psi. That is what I tightened it with this time. I might go by and give it another go just to make sure before I take it all apart again. That might be a simple fix. _________________ My Old 64 Field Find
My Old 66 Squareback
My Old 66 Beetle
My Old 70 Squareback |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|