Looking at buying Ghia, need advice please!

[ejbruton]

Hey guys, first post. I've been looking into getting a Ghia for a couple years now but there was always an excuse not to. I finally have the money free and I'm thinking about taking the plunge. I found one that I think is good but I would like y'alls advice on if you think it's a good vehicle, and what a fair price would be. Here's what I know:

1969 KG Coupe - 37k miles on the car - 1000 miles on replaced engine - asking price of $12k obo

The car sat in the garage of a collector for years until the father of the current seller purchased it. He replaced the engine, wiring, upholstery, and looks like a few other minor parts (steering wheel, radio, shift nob, etc. Basically full restoration of what wasn't already in great shape. He died a year later, so his daughter is selling it.

So! Question is, before I pull the trigger, does it look good? And what would you offer as a fair price?

Thanks!!!

[John Moxon]

Welcome to the "Ghia World" and The Samba.

From the pictures posted, cosmetically it looks good. However, these little devils are good at hiding their faults so to pass judgement on the topside pictures alone tells less than half the story.

Have a look at this buyer's guide...don't be alarmed it's a "worts and all" view: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7108497

It will give you a lot more questions to ask yourself and the seller...if you are able to visit the car there are also more pictures for you to take.

More analytical eyes will be along shortly to give advice.
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[mcdonaldneal]

As John says, a fair few good things there, but don't let your heart rule your head.
I don't think black was a colour option in '69, and the dash is painted where there would have been woodgrain vinyl.
New engine, as you say, but also new carpets, wheels, wipers, window winders and trunk liner. Basically, anything could have been done to the car, so approach it and the backstory with healthy scepticism.
The side trim has been removed. Maybe for looks, maybe for rust repair? The rocker channel condition is key, major structural rust area. Try to inspect them.
Everything has its price though, so check it out thoroughly (the link above) and decide what it's worth to you.
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[sirzo]

Hi & welcome.

My initial thoughts:

A few extra photos would assist to give you a more precise opinion. Side views would help us as would (if you are able to) post photos of inside the nose, under the trunk carpets etc.

As mcdonaldneal pointed out there do not appear to be side trims. If this is the case it certainly has been painted for some reason. If the rear torsion bar covers in front of the rear wheels have been made to "disappear" that would be a bad sign for me.

I would suggest it has more than 37K miles on it. Bumpers do not appear to be USA style (unless imported from Europe?).

The paint looks nice in the photos, but as John hints, paint can hide faults.

I think black was an option for 69 Ghias. I imported one from California and it most certainly appears to be an original black car.

[ejbruton]

Thank you all, I'll request more photos and post them here. I went back and read her back story again and realized I misread. It didn't sit in a collectors garage for years and then her dad bought it. It sat in a collectors BARN for years and then her dad bought it. So that may mean that it really does only have 37k miles, but would explain having to completely replace the engine, repaint, etc. I would also suspect that the chrome had rusted, and so they pulled off the side trim and didn't replace it, and just got bumpers out of a junk yard or parts dealer, and they happened to be the European one's. This is just my theory of what may have happened. My grandmother has a barn with several old trucks, and what I've noticed is that the bodies never rust because the barn is dry, but all the chrome cracks and rusts almost completely, for whatever reason.

Thanks so much for the replies!

[NOVA Airhead]

Some things to consider on this car:

1. Engine appears to be a DP.
2. Wheels are not original. Spare appears to be a bias ply original.
3. Car has been repainted. The apron around the engine should be body paint. It appears to be flat black/matte finish. I don't see that black was available in 1969. Certainly the red interior was not.
4. No chrome window trim around the windshield or rear window.
5. Bumpers as pointed out are not correct.
6. No backup or side market lights.
7. After market engine tin.
8. Windshield wiper arms are not correct.
9. Aftermarket radio.
10. Dash appears to have been smoothed.
11. Aftermarket steering wheel.

There may be more upon further inspection. With all that said none of this is a showstopper if the car is solid. Good Luck.
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[ejbruton]

[John Moxon]

[ejbruton]

John Moxon thanks, so if it has a later model engine this would be a plus for performance right? Seems like the engines were improved every iteration from what I've read.

I'll try to get more pictures and info from the lady selling. Problem is she knows almost nothing about it because she just inherited it from her dad. She didn't even have it listed as a VW because she thought Karmann Ghia was the make of the car.

[John Moxon]

[ejbruton]

From the owner: It's a lot to read, the last 2 paragraphs are the most important.

"With the exception of us wanting to change the oil (or needing to), the car is in excellent running order. My husband drives it about once every 2 weeks long enough to put it through it's paces and get it good and warmed up (we have calm country roads around us... and he loves driving it despite his very long legs)! It's put back in the garage with the tarp when not in action, and he disconnects the battery (for a reason that's beyond my female knowledge of automobiles!)... there really isn't anything wrong with the car! It's like i said, my dad bought the car in perfect order cause he knew he wouldn't have time or energy to fiddle with it, he just wanted to be able to drive and enjoy it! Cosmetically, the chrome is original and although it's in great shape given the age, there is a little pocking here and there, but nothing like overwhelming rust (that's why i tried to give the close up of the body).

I did come across this: we have what seems to be the original owner's manual for the car, and it gives the chassis and engine numbers... i know the chassis number and engine number are different on the car cause NC required me to register the car when i was dealing with the title work, an inspector with our law enforcement dept actually came out and ran the numbers to make sure all was good! I was under the impression that the engine (since it was a rebuild) was probably not original to the car, but without pulling the car out again where we can be in better light, i can't confirm that the number in the manual is matching for the engine... it is however matching for the chassis!

NEW INFO!!! I just got up with Mr. Bayliss... the engine is a 4 cylinder, 12 volt, it is stock with just a little extra power (they put in a little larger cam when they rebuilt).. the engine is not original to the car, but after rebuild and by the time my dad bought the car, it only had about 1,000 miles on it.... he/we haven't put 1,000 miles on it since it was bought (we probably haven't put 500 miles on it since it was bought)!
The exhaust is stock... a little louder than stock though for a nicer sound (but still legal)!
My dad actually bought the car from the VW dealership that was local to Mr. Bayliss (they sold it on commission/consignment for him)... they did a complete inspection on the vehicle as a part of "how they do that", so the car was basically a "certified used car" and in as close to "mint" condition as it could be!

*the odometer is original to the car, when the car was last driven, it only had about 35,something on it... the car was found in a storage shed where it had been for obviously decades!"

[ejbruton]

John that's good advice, i'll keep that in mind.

So what's the max hp you're gonna get from one of these? Like 63?

[John Moxon]

[ejbruton]

John very true I need to get some of those vintage looking ray-bans that people are wearing now to go with the retro look.

[John Moxon]

[c21darrel]

Excuse me Col., I would like to order a large bucket of original style chicken please.

As far as the black 69... it appears quite nice. As everyone has mentioned a shiny paint job can hide plenty...or it could just be a nice paint job done at a time it was popular to remove the aluminum (they weren't chrome) side trim.
The Euro bumpers are probably more valuable than a set of usa bumpers, I know they are much harder to source. The red aftermarket interior goes well with the black. Gauges are very presentable and I like painted a dash more than the faux wood used in 69. Nope its not all original but it also doesnt look tossed together in haste. To me it sure seems like its worth the time to check it out in person and get behind the pics. After seeing it....it'll be worth what seller/buyer agree.
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[ejbruton]

John I think you nailed it! I can see where they got Col. Sanders though....

c21darrel, I'm hoping it was just repainted because they paint was too dull to refresh. I'll go see it in person, unfortunately it's 4 hours away so it won't be easy to find the time. So that's why I wanna get as much feedback now as possible.

[bobnorman]

Welcome to the Samba! Have fun. Mind the rabbit holes they can be quite deep.

Just to add to all the excellent advice/comments already posted here by the senior staff... It does appear to be a decent car, far from stock/original in all the areas that have been noted though.

My take on the note from the owner is that she seems honest enough, and probably doesn’t know/have the true story on the car and is going by what she heard/remembered (ie: chrome being original, etc).

Nose ridge looks good, so likely not hit. Side trim would not have rusted, as per your theory, as it was aluminum. Having a 1600 DP engine is not a bad thing. As for 37,000 miles? Maybe not... a lot has been done to it for a low mileage car, that said the pedal pads don’t seem to have a lot of wear, but certainly could have been replaced when all the other work was done.

I think the key thing to remember about these cars is body condition is everything. Mechanicals, not so much, they are the same as a beetle, but if the body is rough, that would give me long pause. Car has been painted which is a flag; I’d very closely check the lower six inches of the car, around the fender lips and the headlight buckets to start. Also, make sure the number stamped into the chassis below the rear seat matches the number on the aluminum tag up front. Aside from all that, if the car is mechanically ok, and is as solid as it looks, I think it might be worth negotiating for. 12k? Maybe start at 8?
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[ejbruton]

bobnorman Here's the owners manual, so the engine and chassis don't match, but what is the number on the aluminum tag? For the body? And $8k is about what I was thinking.

For me the mileage is the least suspicious part, only because of restoring an old Ford that sat in my grandmothers barn for decades. It only had probably 10,000 miles but we had to replace all the chrome, basically the entire interior, repaint, new engine and tranny, etc. She just wanted it restored because it was her and her husbands first car when they got married and he passed away, so we spared no expense. Point is, you'd be surprised what will happen to a car when it's sat in a barn for that long.

[c21darrel]

The "chassis" number 149141852 is your VIN. Should be same as number stamped under the backseat.
Location of tag in front...

under back seat...

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