Idiot lights on with key off, Won't start, Help Please???

[junkscouts]

Hi All,

'86 Vanagon all stock manual trans with AC originally, died at idle and when I turned the key off the battery, OXS and oil light stayed on but only about half as bright as when the key is in the on position. Also the idle air control valve was buzzing. The van just cranked but would not start (most likely no spark). After about 5 minutes the lights went out on their own and the van then started. It did it several more times and now it appears to be permanent and the lights are on all the time when the key is off and the truck won’t start.

After some internet searching I tried/did the following and nothing has effected the problem:
-disconnected all wires from the alternator as bad diodes in the alternator can apparently cause this. I’ve reconnected them now.
-replaced the O2 sensor (need to smog it soon anyway).
-changed the ignition switch. I changed it a few years ago but wanted to rule it out.
-pulled each fuse and relay in the fuse box one at a time to see if they would shut the lights off but it did nothing.

With the key on the lower two wires to the coil both have battery voltage (~12.5 volts) and with the key off they are both getting ~6 volts. I didn’t think about it till just now but I left them connected when I tested them so maybe one is getting power from the other through the coil if that is possible? Also when I tested ohms to ground both wires showed 35 ohms, I should probably go test them when they are not connected to the coil.

So, does anyone have any ideas what I should check next? Could it be a relay somewhere? If it could be a short in the wiring where should I start unwrapping harnesses?

Also in case it might be related somehow, several years ago I had a problem with high idling so I just covered the end of the idle air control valve and put the hose back on. It’s idled fine ever since.

I drive it 3 or 4 days a week minimum and I had been driving it for about 2 weeks after doing some minor repairs (new battery, rebuilt the rack and pinion, and new rear spindle, backing plate, and brakes after the spindle nut and subsequently the tire fell off on the freeway).

Any help or ideas are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Sven

[Merian]

is it a Westy? if so, is there an aux. battery?

[crazyvwvanman]

What are the last 8 digits of the vin# for the van? Should be 2 letters followed by 6 numbers.

Yes, it matters.

How long have you had it?

Mark

[junkscouts]

It is not a westy, sigle battery only.

Last 8 of the vin are GH045485

Thanks.

[Howesight]

Upon reading your symptoms, the first thing that occurred to me was a faulty ignition switch. But then I saw that you replaced the ignition switch. It's possible that the replacement switch is malfunctioning. If the idiot lights are still on with the key switched to "off/lock", then try simply disconnecting the connector that plugs into the ignition switch. If your idiot lights go out, the switch is bad. Beyond that little tidbit, you are going to have to look at the Bentley wiring diagram to suss this out.

This link might help in testing the switch further:

http://www.oldbluesblog.com/files/Vanagon-ReplacingIgnitionSwitch.pdf
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[junkscouts]

I've had it about four and a half years

[junkscouts]

With the key off and the idiot lights on unplugging the ignition switch does not do anything. Thanks, didn't think of just unplugging it.

[Merian]

Upon reading your symptoms, the first thing that occurred to me was a faulty VR (on the alt.)

have you unplugged the ign. switch AND all wires to the alternator at the same time?


also, you have owned it for 4+ years and this just started? it never did this before?

nothing was done to it recently?

[junkscouts]

I have not tried both at the same time but I will, it probably won't be till Sunday but I'll let you know what happens.

No, it's never done anything like this before. Recently I put in a New battery, rebuilt rack and pinion, rear brakes and new clutch slave cylinder. All that went bad about the same time but had no problems for about 2 weeks before this problem started.

[crazyvwvanman]

Since it is an early 86 that opens up some more possibilities. In the engine compartment there are couple things to try.

Try unplugging the green wire connector from the ignition coil and see if that shuts off the indicator lights.

On the engine relay box, on the edge toward the front of the van, unplug the 2 pin connector and see if that shuts off the indicator lights.

Mark

[junkscouts]

Thanks Mark,

Unplugging either of those does shut the lights off and stops the idle valve from buzzing. What does that mean?

I should add that I'm assuming the box above the coil is the relay box.

[crazyvwvanman]

Yes, the box above the coil is the engine relay box. Inside there are 2 relays. On the left is the ECU power relay. On the right is the Fuel Pump relay.

Below the coil are some brown wires screwed to the side wall with small bolts with 10mm head. Those are ground wires and a couple of them matter for this problem. If you have 2 bolts with brown wires I would test them one at a time.

With the battery ground cable unhooked, loosen a bolt 1 turn. Then spin the wires back and forth a few times. Then tighten the bolt again and connect the battery. See if the problem is still there. If it is, repeat the process for the other bolt.

If this seems to change things then you should remove the bolt that mattered and clean the ring terminals and the body metal they clamped against. Then put a clean or new bolt and washer back in.

Hopefully the above takes care of it. If not, explain what you did and we will go from there. The point of doing the bolts one at a time is so you KNOW which brown wires were at the heart of the problem instead of just making the problem go away for now. It is a good idea to remove and clean those ground connections even if it doesn't fix this problem.

Your early 86 is known for problems in this part of the wiring and for not matching what is shown in the factory wiring diagrams for this part of the wiring. Usually the issues are related to a wiring change that a VW Dealer did when the van was new or almost new. A small emissions related modification was added after the early vans left the factory and it seems that some dealers did it wrong or the instructions were not clear enough. Obviously the vans ran fine for years after this but can it make for odd and hard to figure out problems down the road.

Mark

[junkscouts]

Ok Mark,

It did not work, but here is what I did. There are two bolts like you said, one has 3 ring connectors and multiple brown wires, the other has the grounding strap from the block and one ring connector with a red wire. I tried loosening and swiveling both (testing after each) starting with the grounding strap bolt with no luck so I took each off and cleaned everything with sand paper and a wire brush testing after each and still no luck. I also took the grounding strap off the block and cleaned that end too without any change. What next? Thank you for all the help.

Merian,

I took the wires off the alternator and with the key off and dash lights on I unplugged the ignition switch and the lights stayed on (except the battery light was out) so it looks like it's not the regulator. Thanks.

[crazyvwvanman]

Behind the passenger side tail light is the idle control relay. Try unplugging that next to see if that is the source.

I'm working today so I won't be here much.

Mark

[junkscouts]

Hi Mark,

No hurry at all. Thanks for taking the time to help. I disconnected the idle relay and it had no effect on the problem.

Sven

[Merian]

this has to be some weird wire that bypasses the ign. switch to ground

my '86 is earlier than yours, so I am very interested in this; djkeev has an early '86 and there is a thread on here somewhere that documents some wiring differences

also while waiting you can search up the photo heavy thread of all engine grounds and take apart and clean each one

I hope Mark can expand on the wiring differences & dealer mods when he gets time

[rockfish]

I can't offer any advice. But I wanted to say how impressed I am with the knowledge and support in this particular thread. As opposed to the BS that's going on in the "Houston" thread, we see here how TS works and provides a great learning and productive environment.

Kudos.
_________________
89 Westy
GW 2.5 5-speed trans

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."
- John Wooden

[crazyvwvanman]

Ok, since unplugging the 2 pin connector at the engine relay box stops the dash lights it looks like power is back feeding from the fuel injection wiring into the ignition wiring. I say that because unplugging the green wires at the coil also stops the lights. One way that could happen is melted wires inside the injection harness. That happens more than you might think and this is because the wires to the power steering pump pressure switch can short out to engine metal and melt the wires back into the harness all the way. I would look at the switch on the power steering pump and see how the 2 wires look. Also at the sheath they go into for signs of heat damage.

Mark

[Merian]

this help?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7170981

[junkscouts]

The power steering wires look ok, at least what I can see, although I'm sure there's supposed to be some kind of boot over the connectors.

One thing that didn't occur to me to post until now is that the dash lights go out and stay out when the negative battery cable is disconnected and then reconnected and they don't come back on until the key is turned on.

Thanks again for all the help. I will get in there and take a closer look tomorrow afternoon and I will let you know how it goes.