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DougClink
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Fremont, Michigan
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 Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Before you say thermostat, let me explain. I have a stock 1957 beetle with a 36 hp motor. It only gets driven in the dry months, as I live in Michigan with cold, wet, and most importantly salty winters, my car will only come out after the threat of snow is gone.
When I built the motor nearly 20 years ago, it didn't have the thermostat and warm-up ring. I have the engine out to fix the clutch, I installed an intake that is not plugged and have the opportunity to install a thermostat.
The car ran great, heated up nice and I never really realized it was missing.
So, should I put one on or leave well enough alone?
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wcfvw69 
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Here's been my thought as I installed the thermostats back on all my air cooled VW's. The German engineers where a hell of a lot smarter than most of us on this site. If they weren't needed, VW wouldn't of spent the $ to install them on the engines.
I'm in hot as heck Arizona and run them on my VW's. They help the engine warm up evenly and do affect the heat system as it allows the heater air to get hot faster as the engine warms up much quicker.
None of my VW's are daily drivers but are driven in the winter and summer. I noticed improvements in cold engine drivability, even in the summer and as I mentioned, the heater air get's much hotter and does so quicker.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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I can only second the above. Run 'em.
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Kjell Roar
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008
Posts: 1326
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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The termostat is the only part that tries to give the engine the right temperature, at the right time.
Use it.
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24733
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Sooner it warms up and stays a more even warm the better. More even of operating temp means engine expands and contracts less often. Which in turn means less loosening of engine fasteners and less engine oil leak problems.
Even if you only drive in the hotter months your weather can get very humid. In temps up to about 70 F your carb can still ice up when humid. This is especially noticeable if you ever get fog or dew in the morning.
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DougClink
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Fremont, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Thank all. I will put it on.
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DougClink
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Fremont, Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Okay, I have not had great luck here. I got what I think was a 40 horse thermostat rod (expecting a 36hp), salvaged a thermostat I had and struggled to get mine adjusted. The spring kept pushing the ring open.
So I purchased a correct 36hp rod and thermostat. Struggled to install it. (long story, had to remove the muffler, fan housing etc. The fan did not want to fit in the cylinder tin etc.)
Anyway, with the thermo cold I installed everything and pulled the ring closed, tightened the clamp. Then used a heat gun to heat the thermostat and the ring opened- (perhaps a little too far.) I expected it to fully close (return to the setting I started with) but no- the spring seems to be pushing it open.
Any help, advice or links to get this thing done would be great. I was ready to go without it - but hopefully you all can help me get this done.
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| Use your heat gun to expand the thermostat. When it is fully expanded, it will be touching the top of the bracket. Keep the heat on and adjust the ring so that it is 20mm from the top of the fan shroud. When the thermostat cools the ring will be tight under tension against the fan shroud. |
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rud helsen
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Joined: July 14, 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Belgium, Heist op den Berg
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:07 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference.
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rud helsen
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Belgium, Heist op den Berg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| tasb wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference. |
Ok! 
But this pro only builds en rebuilds VW engines en transmissions for over 30 years? (Or more...) he really knows what he's talking about and has seen it all!
He's retiring this year... You don't want to know how many people here are begging him to build An engine for them. So if he says drop the termostat, i Just believe him  |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| rud helsen wrote: |
| tasb wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference. |
Ok!
But this pro only builds en rebuilds VW engines en transmissions for over 30 years? (Or more...) he really knows what he's talking about and has seen it all!
He's retiring this year... You don't want to know how many people here are begging him to build An engine for them. So if he says drop the termostat, i Just believe him |
The fact that this "pro" engine builder recommends not using a thermostat, is more than enough information for me to not trust him or ever want to use him.
I'd be quite certain that the engineers who designed the engine and deemed the thermostat necessary, where a heck of a lot smarter than this pro builder.
I also have 30 years of classic air cooled VW ownership. There's a big difference in an air cooled VW engine w/a thermostat and flaps vs. one w/out one. It's even more pronounced in the winter. The cold weather drivability and heater output is night and day with them installed.
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Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
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rud helsen
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2009
Posts: 323
Location: Belgium, Heist op den Berg
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
| tasb wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference. |
Ok!
But this pro only builds en rebuilds VW engines en transmissions for over 30 years? (Or more...) he really knows what he's talking about and has seen it all!
He's retiring this year... You don't want to know how many people here are begging him to build An engine for them. So if he says drop the termostat, i Just believe him |
The fact that this "pro" engine builder recommends not using a thermostat, is more than enough information for me to not trust him or ever want to use him.
I'd be quite certain that the engineers who designed the engine and deemed the thermostat necessary, where a heck of a lot smarter than this pro builder.
I also have 30 years of classic air cooled VW ownership. There's a big difference in an air cooled VW engine w/a thermostat and flaps vs. one w/out one. It's even more pronounced in the winter. The cold weather drivability and heater output is night and day with them installed. |
Ok, that's your opinion!
I have mine. |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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Sure is a beautiful world when we can agree to disagree.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
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1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5474
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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The thermostat is missing from my rebuilt 36 horse and I live in the Seattle area. I have a couple observations.
1. I get air to help keep the windshield defogged right from startup.
2. I have to adjust the idle mix and speed slightly with the seasons. The mix needs to be about 1/6 turn richer and the idle speed about 1/4 turn faster, winter compared to summer.
3. It runs to cold all year. I get the tan foam near the oil filler, worse in the winter but all year. The mild climate and the mix of trips that are about 50% 10 miles or less don't help. I may put a 40 horse crank pulley on to minimize it.
The previous owner gave me what I believe to be all the parts, but that is for sometime when the engine is out. I've never seen an intact stale air thermostat system.
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69806
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| The previous owner gave me what I believe to be all the parts, but that is for sometime when the engine is out. I've never seen an intact stale air thermostat system. |
This is basically everything, except there should be a little rubber stopper in the hole your see there around 10 o'clock:
I have driven a 36hp in Phoenix both with and without the warm-up parts.
With the exception of the intense summer where it opens very quickly on startup, it drives better all around.
It also has a cooler engine sound from the bowl sucking in air.
I have installed all the parts with the engine in place but it's a PITA
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vwinnovator
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
| tasb wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference. |
Ok!
But this pro only builds en rebuilds VW engines en transmissions for over 30 years? (Or more...) he really knows what he's talking about and has seen it all!
He's retiring this year... You don't want to know how many people here are begging him to build An engine for them. So if he says drop the termostat, i Just believe him |
The fact that this "pro" engine builder recommends not using a thermostat, is more than enough information for me to not trust him or ever want to use him.
I'd be quite certain that the engineers who designed the engine and deemed the thermostat necessary, where a heck of a lot smarter than this pro builder.
|
I've met a LOT of engineers through my time in this industry, and I have to say that I'm not so sure they are all that smart....
While I agree that the flaps and t-stat is a good idea, I've also been around 30yrs of the cars where 80-90% of them lacked the system..
I guess in the same respect as an engineer might view things, an oil change every 1000miles would be more beneficial than one every 3000miles....
would it hurt anything? not really
Is it necessary? if it makes you feel good about your engine.
hmmm..Does that Raby DTM use a thermostat?
looking into it...
found it. from the DTM FAQ page:
"Q: Does it have a thermostat?
A:No it does not incorporate a thermostat. We have found that in the winter months simply swapping to an earlier type of cooling fan (say from a 13-1500cc engine) will provide excellent warm up, even in cold climates. The addition of an oil thermostat is a plus, but is not needed."
interesting.... |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| vwinnovator wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
| tasb wrote: |
| rud helsen wrote: |
The termostat is totally useless in your case.
I did exactly the same with my engine. It has been rebuild by a pro and he gave me the same advice! Just leave it out together with the cooling ring. |
Not sure I would make that statement and go quite that far. A lot of pro's don';'t even know that acvw had thermostats.
My 36 hp engines with thermostat respond much better with the thermostats installed.
As it gets cold there in Fremont (I grew up in Twin Lakes) you'll notice the difference. |
Ok!
But this pro only builds en rebuilds VW engines en transmissions for over 30 years? (Or more...) he really knows what he's talking about and has seen it all!
He's retiring this year... You don't want to know how many people here are begging him to build An engine for them. So if he says drop the termostat, i Just believe him |
The fact that this "pro" engine builder recommends not using a thermostat, is more than enough information for me to not trust him or ever want to use him.
I'd be quite certain that the engineers who designed the engine and deemed the thermostat necessary, where a heck of a lot smarter than this pro builder.
|
I've met a LOT of engineers through my time in this industry, and I have to say that I'm not so sure they are all that smart....
While I agree that the flaps and t-stat is a good idea, I've also been around 30yrs of the cars where 80-90% of them lacked the system..
I guess in the same respect as an engineer might view things, an oil change every 1000miles would be more beneficial than one every 3000miles....
would it hurt anything? not really
Is it necessary? if it makes you feel good about your engine.
hmmm..Does that Raby DTM use a thermostat?
looking into it...
found it. from the DTM FAQ page:
"Q: Does it have a thermostat?
A:No it does not incorporate a thermostat. We have found that in the winter months simply swapping to an earlier type of cooling fan (say from a 13-1500cc engine) will provide excellent warm up, even in cold climates. The addition of an oil thermostat is a plus, but is not needed."
interesting.... |
I grew in the San Diego area in the 70's and 80's. I remember going to a local VW only repair shop that I frequented. They had buckets of used flaps and thermostats from engines they yanked them off of in their engine rebuild area. This was a very common practice in the warmer southwestern states in the USA. There's been several VW factory trained mechanics that worked in the dealerships in the 70's on this site who admitted they removed them. Why? Cause it saved them time when doing an engine R&R. They'd also throw out the bowden cable that worked the warm air preheat flap on the oil baths on 68-70 VW's because it added time to the job. That's why they are so rare these days.
I would certainly never suggest that the engineers are always right. I am convinced however that they were right in having the thermostats on these air cooled engines. It's been frequently talked about on this site that VW was notoriously cheap and wanted to save every penny they could. If they could of gotten away w/out these parts, I'm sure they would of.
Like Everett, I also have working thermostat's and the cooling flaps on all three of my bone stock aircooled VW's. My 69 bug has the bowden cable (that was a pain to locate) is hooked up to the oil bath air cleaner w/the correct flap mechanism and associated parts. The driveability when the engine is cold especially in winter, is vastly improved. The heater gets HOT air blowing much faster as well.
People need to make their own decision whether to run these thermostats or not. If people drove a VW with a bone stock VW engine with all the original, restored VW parts working and in place, they'd be convinced.
A large majority of VW owners today don't know how well these engines ran back in the day when they were new. Many drive their VW with crappy, Chinese carbs, 009 distributors, clogged carburetor heat risers, no thermostat or cooling flaps, aftermarket headers w/single exhaust, etc.. This drives so many daily posts, asking why this or that isn't working right, idle right, drive right, and that's ok.
To me, I enjoy reading the threads where people put their engines back to originality and are blown away with how nice their VW is to drive now with their heater that works, engines that idle and accelerate w/out huge flat spots, etc..
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Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69806
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| vwinnovator wrote: |
hmmm..Does that Raby DTM use a thermostat?
looking into it...
found it. from the DTM FAQ page:
"Q: Does it have a thermostat?
A:No it does not incorporate a thermostat. We have found that in the winter months simply swapping to an earlier type of cooling fan (say from a 13-1500cc engine) will provide excellent warm up, even in cold climates. The addition of an oil thermostat is a plus, but is not needed."
interesting.... |
Just think if VW required you to change your fan every winter. LOL
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vwinnovator
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1555
Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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| Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat or no thermostat? |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| vwinnovator wrote: |
hmmm..Does that Raby DTM use a thermostat?
looking into it...
found it. from the DTM FAQ page:
"Q: Does it have a thermostat?
A:No it does not incorporate a thermostat. We have found that in the winter months simply swapping to an earlier type of cooling fan (say from a 13-1500cc engine) will provide excellent warm up, even in cold climates. The addition of an oil thermostat is a plus, but is not needed."
interesting.... |
Just think if VW required you to change your fan every winter. LOL |
I found that odd as well.
It would be much quicker to swap the gen/alt pulley to "slow" the fan down a little. |
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