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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| When I was under the car searching for the ground strap I double checked the starter/solenoid and the #50 wire to the solenoid did not seem to have the tightest of connections - a squeeze of a pliers on the connection seem to correct that possibility. |
This could very well have been your problem. Not uncommon for connectors that have been holding tight for 30+ years.
You didn't happen to clean those connections on the starter while you were under there? Years of road dust and moisture help to loosen the connections and add resistance to the contact points.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| When I was under the car searching for the ground strap I double checked the starter/solenoid and the #50 wire to the solenoid did not seem to have the tightest of connections - a squeeze of a pliers on the connection seem to correct that possibility. |
This could very well have been your problem. Not uncommon for connectors that have been holding tight for 30+ years.
You didn't happen to clean those connections on the starter while you were under there? Years of road dust and moisture help to loosen the connections and add resistance to the contact points. |
Ashman, Rockerarm, Cusser and everyone else that are helping me to understand air cooled VWs and the quirkiness of them - THANK YOU!!!
Ashman,
The starter and solenoid are sparkling brand new and the #50 wire to it is new as well. The connection at the solenoid just didn't seem to click in as firmly as I thought it should so that is why the pliers were brought in to give it a light squeeze. I should have the new ground strap from WW soon and will get the old crusty one off the car making certain to clean all the contact areas before installing the new strap.
Thanks again to everyone! |
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Patty B.
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 2181
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| This may be oversimplifying but how much stuff do you have on your key chain? Sometimes too much weight on the key can missalign something and cause intermitten no starts. Been there done that--read about it here somewhere a long time ago. |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| Patty B. wrote: |
| This may be oversimplifying but how much stuff do you have on your key chain? Sometimes too much weight on the key can missalign something and cause intermitten no starts. Been there done that--read about it here somewhere a long time ago. |
Patty,
Thanks for your insight - only the three keys it takes to run the veewee are on the ring. The ignition switch and lock assembly are all new. |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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That is a basic test and its validity is arguable!
I will relate a very true story I was involved with. Please sit back and see if you see the variances in different testing.
Gov't cars where the original battery side post terminals were removed and replaced with longer bolts to support additional connections at the battery. These longer bolts bottomed out in the battery and caused a crack causing battery acid to migrate down the positive cable towards the starter. YEARS down the road these cars were experiencing starter cranking concerns. The basic tech replaced batteries multiple times and even the starters. The tech would verify battery voltage, load test, charging circuits, etc. THEY EVEN VERIFIED 12V TO THE STARTER, WITH NO LOADS. It was ONLY til we performed a voltage drop test from the battery positive post to the starter post did we see 3+ volt loss here as the acid would corrode the snot out of the positive cable. This test was done as the starter would normally operate. HEY, we had 12v to the starter and techs even ohm metered this cable and found minimum resistance. It was only after we performed the voltage drop test, UNDER THE LOAD FOR THIS CIRCUIT, did we see the true problem because THIS TEST IS PERFORMED ON THE CIRCUIT UNDER A LOAD.
The original poster who needs the help needs to work with ONLY ONE THEORY while diagnosing his concern. Been in the military with 3 Lieutenants trying to give instructions? Same shit.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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@pepsiguy78, I understand the point you are trying to make that once you push start the car the no-crank problem seems to go away for a while. Is this measurable or is the infrequency of the problem not predictable? Meaning, could the ability to crank the engine the next time have nothing to do with the car being push started and it is just by chance that it once again works?
I also see the point that rockerarm is making. Either the voltage making it to the starter motor (via the battery cable) or the voltage making it to the starter solenoid (via the #50 red wire) are too low WHILE the starter is attempting to crank the engine. This is due to old/bad wiring.
There is something you can do to proactively be prepared for your next no-crank situation. This will help to isolate where the problem is as well as give you a backup option when your ignition switch fails to crank the engine.
Install a momentary switch between the battery positive terminal and the #50 junction below the rear seat. This switched circuit will be in addition to the two wires already there. You will have to work out how you can add a 3rd wire (3-way junction?).
The next time your engine fails to crank, leave the ignition in the ON position and press the momentary switch which will energize the #50 circuit and should activate the starter. This basically bypassed the ignition switch starter circuit and powers the starter solenoid directly from the battery (MAX voltage).
If this temp switch immediately cranks the engine, the you have identified the problem is probably with the power coming from the ignition switch. Immediately turn off the ignition and try to start the engine again, this time with the ignition switch. If you STILL cannot crank the engine but the temp starter button reliably works once more, you know the problem is in the ignition switch circuit. In such situations most people just add a hard start relay. This functionally does what the momentary switch does.
If both the temp starter switch and the ignition switch fails to crank the engine you have basically isolated the problem to the starter or the battery cable. The starter is new. How old is the battery cable?
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
@pepsiguy78, I understand the point you are trying to make that once you push start the car the no-crank problem seems to go away for a while. Is this measurable or is the infrequency of the problem not predictable? Meaning, could the ability to crank the engine the next time have nothing to do with the car being push started and it is just by chance that it once again works?
I also see the point that rockerarm is making. Either the voltage making it to the starter motor (via the battery cable) or the voltage making it to the starter solenoid (via the #50 red wire) are too low WHILE the starter is attempting to crank the engine. This is due to old/bad wiring.
There is something you can do to proactively be prepared for your next no-crank situation. This will help to isolate where the problem is as well as give you a backup option when your ignition switch fails to crank the engine.
Install a momentary switch between the battery positive terminal and the #50 junction below the rear seat. This switched circuit will be in addition to the two wires already there. You will have to work out how you can add a 3rd wire (3-way junction?).
The next time your engine fails to crank, leave the ignition in the ON position and press the momentary switch which will energize the #50 circuit and should activate the starter. This basically bypassed the ignition switch starter circuit and powers the starter solenoid directly from the battery (MAX voltage).
If this temp switch immediately cranks the engine, the you have identified the problem is probably with the power coming from the ignition switch. Immediately turn off the ignition and try to start the engine again, this time with the ignition switch. If you STILL cannot crank the engine but the temp starter button reliably works once more, you know the problem is in the ignition switch circuit. In such situations most people just add a hard start relay. This functionally does what the momentary switch does.
If both the temp starter switch and the ignition switch fails to crank the engine you have basically isolated the problem to the starter or the battery cable. The starter is new. How old is the battery cable? |
The problem seems to be unpredictable and push starting the car doesn't seem to "correct a problem" that I can detect.
Very interesting about the temp starter switch that you suggests and something I will try to figure out. The hard start relay may also be the solution as well.
How old are the battery cables? The negative cable is a new cable purchased from NAPA earlier this year - it is a heavy gauge wire and not the ground strap that I believe was standard. Which style is preferred? The positive cable is of unknown age but seems to be in good condition.
As stated before, THANK YOU for your help in helping me to sort out the Bug's bugs.
Rick |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
@pepsiguy78, I understand the point you are trying to make that once you push start the car the no-crank problem seems to go away for a while. Is this measurable or is the infrequency of the problem not predictable? Meaning, could the ability to crank the engine the next time have nothing to do with the car being push started and it is just by chance that it once again works?
I also see the point that rockerarm is making. Either the voltage making it to the starter motor (via the battery cable) or the voltage making it to the starter solenoid (via the #50 red wire) are too low WHILE the starter is attempting to crank the engine. This is due to old/bad wiring.
There is something you can do to proactively be prepared for your next no-crank situation. This will help to isolate where the problem is as well as give you a backup option when your ignition switch fails to crank the engine.
Install a momentary switch between the battery positive terminal and the #50 junction below the rear seat. This switched circuit will be in addition to the two wires already there. You will have to work out how you can add a 3rd wire (3-way junction?).
The next time your engine fails to crank, leave the ignition in the ON position and press the momentary switch which will energize the #50 circuit and should activate the starter. This basically bypassed the ignition switch starter circuit and powers the starter solenoid directly from the battery (MAX voltage).
If this temp switch immediately cranks the engine, the you have identified the problem is probably with the power coming from the ignition switch. Immediately turn off the ignition and try to start the engine again, this time with the ignition switch. If you STILL cannot crank the engine but the temp starter button reliably works once more, you know the problem is in the ignition switch circuit. In such situations most people just add a hard start relay. This functionally does what the momentary switch does.
If both the temp starter switch and the ignition switch fails to crank the engine you have basically isolated the problem to the starter or the battery cable. The starter is new. How old is the battery cable? |
Ashman,
I bought a Bosch Hard Start relay to put on my car but wanted to verify a couple things before I "screw something up". I want to install it under the rear seat and not under the car as my instructions show. I looked back thru some older forum postings and a few years ago you were advising someone else and had a picture of under the rear seat and done some "art work" showing where to install the #85 and #87 wire of the relay. It looked like you were splicing into the #50 wire and attaching the #85 blue wire to the ignition side and the #87 black wire into the starter solenoid side of the wire. Do I understand that correctly or? Red wire goes to battery and yellow wire goes to ground? Also, there was a discussion whether the 15 amp fuse was adequate and it was suggested to go up to a 30 amp.
Thanks in advance for the help!!
I have replaced the ignition switch, starter, positive and negative battery cables along with #50 wire to the starter along with the ground strap between the transmission and frame and have not had a no crank issue in several weeks - I have "thrown a few darts" in attempting to track down my problem and may have hit the "bull's eye" but thought that the HSR would be a good thing to add.
THANKS!! |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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Tim Donahoe
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Pepsi, on this forum, type this in search:
Hard Start Relay Diagram
Three pages, but it shows a nice photo of how to undo and install a Bosch style relay.
I used a 20 amp fuse, and no issues after a year.
Tim
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Richard O'Brien |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Cusser, now I am confused... the wiring diagram for the Bosch relay shows that #86 goes to ground and #85 goes to ignition. |
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Technically there is a correct way (I don't remember which way it is) but in reality I don't think the relay cares which way you do it. 
_________________
"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
| mark tucker wrote: |
| I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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Tim Donahoe
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Pepsi, re-read my last post above.
Go to the thread I mentioned. It shows a different photo that will defuse your confusion.
Tim
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Richard O'Brien |
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Tim Donahoe
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Pepsi, re-read my last post above.
Go to the thread I mentioned. It shows a different photo that will defuse your confusion.
Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
Cusser, now I am confused... the wiring diagram for the Bosch relay shows that #86 goes to ground and #85 goes to ignition. |
Not my picture, from here on this site, I copied it for you. I don't use a hard start relay on mine.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/670714.jpg
Put your finger on the above and thank me later. As you can see, it has a different way of doing things, compared to the other illustration. It's the way I did mine, using a Wolfsburg West hard-start relay (the same as a Bosch, I believe).
Tim
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Tim, Cusser and Ashman,
THANK YOU for all your help in "de-bugging" my BUG!!! It is so very much appreciated! It is people like you that help keep air cooled VWs puttering. |
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reded68
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Joined: April 12, 2012
Posts: 238
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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Also - don't throw away your old starter! I was just about to buy a new one but a mate said he'd take a look and it ended up just being worn brushes. Old ones out, new ones in and hey presto, a 30 dollar fix.
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1968 Beetle "Ed" - 1776cc's of awesomeness |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| Cusser, now I am confused... the wiring diagram for the Bosch relay shows that #86 goes to ground and #85 goes to ignition. |
For future reference, the #85 and #86 terminals are interchangeable. As long as current flows between the two (in either direction) the relay will work.
Also, for this application, #30 and #87 could be swapped and the relay would still work. But, the #30 circuit is constant 12v+ throughout the wiring diagram so for consistency #30 should be the one connected to the battery.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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pepsiguy78
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2015
Posts: 110
Location: Vancouver,WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Starter replacement |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| pepsiguy78 wrote: |
| Cusser, now I am confused... the wiring diagram for the Bosch relay shows that #86 goes to ground and #85 goes to ignition. |
For future reference, the #85 and #86 terminals are interchangeable. As long as current flows between the two (in either direction) the relay will work.
Also, for this application, #30 and #87 could be swapped and the relay would still work. But, the #30 circuit is constant 12v+ throughout the wiring diagram so for consistency #30 should be the one connected to the battery. |
Ashman,
Thanks again!
I wish I learned more about electrical and am glad that guys like you are more than willing to help people like me (ones who are "all thumbs") figure things out.
If you are ever in the Pacific Northwest, stop by for a cold one.
Rick |
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