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T4 engine Misfire
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Just fired up the T4 engine in my '69 Ghia after installing. It runs rough, seems to misfire and flames come out if the no 2 cylinder Weber carb intake tube when accelerated. There is an exhaust leak on the R/side near the header pipe(s). Not sure yet where. Compression is good and I'm sure valves adjusted correctly. Any help on a diagnostic aproch before I waste too much time would be appreciated.
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Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Flames out of both carbs would say that valve timing is off at the cam.

Flames out of one carb says intake valve not closing all the way. Bent valve, or tight valve lash would be a place to start. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Thank you Ray.
Will recheck valve settings tomorrow. Sounds like the intake may be open when # 2 fires.
A few questions if you can reply & advise:
If I adjusted the valves 180 degrees off and started the engine would a valve bend?
My engine, purchased from GEX by P/O, is supposed to be a 2.0L with hydraulic lifters and has not been started in several years. I have not checked push rods to verify if metal or aluminum and do not know how to check lifters. If the lifters were not pumped up and lost pressure would that effect valve adjustment?
Lastly, can I check for bent valve using compressed air in cylinder with both valves closed?
Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

David Follett wrote:
Thank you Ray.
Will recheck valve settings tomorrow. Sounds like the intake may be open when # 2 fires.
A few questions if you can reply & advise:
If I adjusted the valves 180 degrees off and started the engine would a valve bend?
My engine, purchased from GEX by P/O, is supposed to be a 2.0L with hydraulic lifters and has not been started in several years. I have not checked push rods to verify if metal or aluminum and do not know how to check lifters. If the lifters were not pumped up and lost pressure would that effect valve adjustment?
Lastly, can I check for bent valve using compressed air in cylinder with both valves closed?
Dave


First....do the basics......find top dead center on the #1 piston. Make sure that meets up to the mark on the fan pulley. Make sure you are on the compression stroke....meaning both valves on #1 closed. Check that the distributor rotor position is correct at #1.

If not....this may mean your distributor drive is installed....very common. Correct that......then adjust all of your valves.

The easiest way is to start at #1.......turn the engine in reverse.....180° on the fan pulley and watch the distributor rotor move 90°. This will be #2. Both valves should be closed. Adjust....repeat rotation....check and adjust #3.....repeat. ....check and adjust #4.

Before doing valve adjustment....its worthwhile to get pushrod tube seals......clean both ends of all pushrod tubes with carb cleaner. Remove the lower sled tins and pull the valve covers. You can check the pushrods with a magnet to see if they are steel or aluminum.

Then......pull your rocker shaft pair off of each cylinder pair when its at TDC on compression stroke.....remove the pushrods....lay them out in order.....pull the pushrod tubes. Clean them, put new seals on them, oil them lightly with clean motor oil.

You can pull each lifter out with a magnet. Check them for no parts loose, whether they are hydraulic or solid.....andcmake sure the pushrods are steel for hydraulic. They can be steel or chromolly for solid lifters. Make sure the lifter goes back in the bore it came out of.

Replace the pushrod tube with new seals, the pushrods, the rockers and ....THEN adjust that valve pair. Then move the #2....and repeat this.

So at one time, you get to check and inspect your lifters for proper type and pair, check that pushrods are straight and uniform, that valve adjuster screws are not worn.....and you get new Pushrod tube seals and your valves are adjusted.

I would rotate the engine to #2 after you have rremoved #1 rocker set so you can remove #2 rocker set.....so you can put a straight,edge across all four valve tips to make sure they are level and none are higher or lower. Then just do the seals and lifter inspection on #2......replace rockers and adjust valves....then turn the engine back to #1 to replace rockers and adjust valves.

Why do this?

Because you have a GEX engine......a company notorious for the very worst quality engines with damaged and mismatched parts.....that most people would not even accept for a core with a GEX tag attached.

After this is complete.....pull all four spark plugs.....and do a compression test. This will tell you if you have a,bent valve.

If compression is good.....then start it up....and chances are it was just an adjustment. The worry is...why was tht valve so tight.

If compression is 0 on one cylinder.....there is your bent or burned valve.

If the stems oj the valves were not even....if one is low...its likely bent or its valve guide is sticking.
If one is too high....either a cracked seat, a sinking seat or a stretching valve. Either way its at minimum a valve job and at maximum a rebuilt or new head.

Ray
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Thank you Ray. Excellent information & advice. Will not be able to do your suggestions until we return the Ghia north via trailer next month. I'll let you know how we make out.
Dave
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Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Worth $40 if you have dual carburetors/linkage to tune/synchronize.
http://chircoestore.com/carburetor-synchronizer-snail-style.html
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Hi Ray. It runs strong. Went through all your suggestions except removing p/rod tubes & lifters. Valve stems were even and adjusting screws flat. P/rods are steel so for now I'll assume we do not have hydraulic lifters as the P/O told me.
Compression # 1 is 100. All others 115-120. I built a leak down tester and # 1 is 85 psi at a 100 psi input. All others are 0-5% leakage. Adjusted valves to .006 & .008. I had them set at no clearance plus about a 1/4 turn since I thought we dad a hydraulic set up. My DTM crank pulley has a small amount of play due to key not fitting tight in the crankshaft. New key has helped but not 100%. Timing spec on my CD engine, '73 Type 2 automatic case is 5 ATDC. After engine started at about 5 BTDC we still had a misfire and a flame out of # 2 carb tube when engine accelerated. Advanced static timing to 26 BTDC and it came alive. Wow, sounds strong. 009 distributor advanced must be seized since there is no advance accelerating engine checking with the strobe. Also due to pulley problem not sure true TDC is so I set up about half way between the 1/4" play. Now I have to correct # 1 & 2 exhaust header leak and try to find out what the cylinder displacement is.
Thank you again, Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

David Follett wrote:
Hi Ray. It runs strong. Went through all your suggestions except removing p/rod tubes & lifters. Valve stems were even and adjusting screws flat. P/rods are steel so for now I'll assume we do not have hydraulic lifters as the P/O told me.
Compression # 1 is 100. All others 115-120. I built a leak down tester and # 1 is 85 psi at a 100 psi input. All others are 0-5% leakage. Adjusted valves to .006 & .008. I had them set at no clearance plus about a 1/4 turn since I thought we dad a hydraulic set up. My DTM crank pulley has a small amount of play due to key not fitting tight in the crankshaft. New key has helped but not 100%. Timing spec on my CD engine, '73 Type 2 automatic case is 5 ATDC. After engine started at about 5 BTDC we still had a misfire and a flame out of # 2 carb tube when engine accelerated. Advanced static timing to 26 BTDC and it came alive. Wow, sounds strong. 009 distributor advanced must be seized since there is no advance accelerating engine checking with the strobe. Also due to pulley problem not sure true TDC is so I set up about half way between the 1/4" play. Now I have to correct # 1 & 2 exhaust header leak and try to find out what the cylinder displacement is.
Thank you again, Dave


Ok....a couple of odd things here and terminology issues.

1. If it is still mainly stock equipmemt....AND it has steel push rods as you note.....then it has hydraulic lifters.
Hydraulic lifters came with steel pushrods.....all others came with solid lifters and steel pushrods.
The factory steel pushrods will not work with solid lifters. They are too short.

2. Again....at least pull the lifters on the #1 cylinder with low compression. This is simple and takes minutes. You need to verify what type of lifters and that they are functioning and not wearing improperly.

3. You noted DTM. Does your engine have a Raby's Aircooled technology coolijg system?

4. Another possible huge cause of both low compression and the exhaust leak you are having is a cylinder head leak. Make sure yiu fux it quick and that it does not have the factory head gaskets.

5. Just so you know......what the engine case number originally had for timing has nothing to do with what timing it requires. All of the engines cases are the same.
Timing specs have to do with application....what kind of vehcile, distributor and most importantly, camshaft and compression.

The timing spec you were trying to set to...5° ATDC......would be very poor for anything but a bus with a bus camshaft.

For running in a ghia. ...depending on cam and compression, setting timing up for a vehicle similar to a 411 coupe with carbs....that would be 8-10° BTDC at about 850-900 rpm idle......resulting in about 27-30° BTDC at,3500 rpm with all mechanical advance in.....would be better.

5. The 009 distributor is just about the worst distributor with the worst curve you can put on a type 4. I would take the breaker plate out for now and find out why the advance is locked.

You need to be careful. You cannot set the idle timing at 26° . If for some reason the advqnce is just stuck and it starts operating.....you will end up at 60° advance in the blink of an eye....and likely end up with a hole in the piston.

Its also possible knowing the company that made this engine......that your distributor drive is not installed correctly.

The smartest thing to do....is find out what lifters you have. Then pull the rear hanger and remove the oil pump and look at the end of the cam. Hopefully it has numbers stamped on the end of the blank that you can use here to identiry the brand and grind. That will go a long way toward telling you what the ignition timing and advance should be set to.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Thank you again Ray. We do have a Rabi kit with external oil filter & cooler installed. The distributor is shot. Cannot free up advance plate so I am installing the unit from my 1600cc T1 engine for now. Guess it is a 009 version, no vacuum advance or any id information. You mentioned the 009 is not a good choice. What would you recommend? After I pressure # 1 & 2 cylinders to try and locate the exhaust leak I'll remove the rockers again. I would have removed the tubes but they seem to have a sealer on the ends and not having new seals or tubes I did not want to damage them. I've been using Bugged Eyed in GA for most of my brake, suspension, etc part replacements. I will order 4 new tubes & seals then pull the old ones and lifters out. Any suggestions where to get T4 parts and who you use? All of my previous experience so far has been the T1 engines. Guess I better get a manual and do some studying in the event the head has to come off. Hoping the leak is at the header and pressure into the cylinder with valves closed then exhaust open, tail pipe plugged, will help find source of leak.
Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

David Follett wrote:
Thank you again Ray. We do have a Rabi kit with external oil filter & cooler installed. The distributor is shot. Cannot free up advance plate so I am installing the unit from my 1600cc T1 engine for now. Guess it is a 009 version, no vacuum advance or any id information. You mentioned the 009 is not a good choice. What would you recommend? After I pressure # 1 & 2 cylinders to try and locate the exhaust leak I'll remove the rockers again. I would have removed the tubes but they seem to have a sealer on the ends and not having new seals or tubes I did not want to damage them. I've been using Bugged Eyed in GA for most of my brake, suspension, etc part replacements. I will order 4 new tubes & seals then pull the old ones and lifters out. Any suggestions where to get T4 parts and who you use? All of my previous experience so far has been the T1 engines. Guess I better get a manual and do some studying in the event the head has to come off. Hoping the leak is at the header and pressure into the cylinder with valves closed then exhaust open, tail pipe plugged, will help find source of leak.
Dave


With type 4 engines....you do not need to replace the pushrod tubes. They are steel....and are removeable without taking off the heads.

The lifters are removeable without taking off the heads as well. To remove and reseal the pushrod tubes.....you remove the 4 nuts that hold the rocker shafts on. Pull out the rocker shafts, rocker arms and spacer spring set as a unit and lay it on a paper towel.

Pull out the pushrods and keep them in order with their rocker set. Remove the pushrod support wire. It just unclips. Then remove the lower sled tin.....4 screws.......and you will see the pushrod tubes.

The tubes have an indention about 2" from the heads in each side. There is a special pair of pliers that fit in these but you can improvise with vise grips or channel locks.....just dont squeeze them hard and bend them.
Twist the tubes and push toward the heads and the pushrod tubes slide right out.

When you get them out ean away all of the sealer and get new o-rings. Type 4 uses actual o-rings and not seals like type 1.

The lifters pull right out with a magnet or o-ring pick.

These are just a few of the advantages of the type 4 that keep me from ever going back to type 1.

You most likely have an exhaust leak either at the copper exhaust gasket.....or at the head to cylinder seal. Fix them ASAP......because if you dont......it may ruin the head especially if the exhaust leak is at the cylinder sealing surface.

As for distributor.....an old fuel injection, distributor from a bus or even a type 3 or 4 car.....with even a single vacuum advance would be better than the 009....and this really depends on what camshaft you have. Ray

EDIT: To put a little finer point on this....its not simple to tell you what distributor will work well on your engine until you find out what camshaft you have.
For instance....on D-jet injected cars...the 1.7L and 411/412 and Porsche 914....and the US version of the 2.0L Porsche 914....the cam that operated in those engines was optimized for the fuel injection.

It required a distributor with vacuum advance and centrifugal advance. It has a two stage advance. Vacuum gives maybe 10-12 degrees off the line ...then is lost...and mechanical kicks in around 1100 rpm or so and maxes out at 27* BTDC at 3500 rpm....and worked very well because the engines were high compression.

It also worked decent on L-jet in the 1.8L for the 412 and Porsche 914 because that system had no injection timing issues and needed about the same vacuum signature. But....they 1.8L used a distributor with slightly different advance curves...and did not run exactly as well (but decent) if the 1.7L distributor was used....or vica versa using the 1.8L unit in the 1.7L engine.

Now...when you get to the bus...1.8L and 2.0L...they used a totally different cam and totally different timing and advance points and made their maximum torque and power in a totally different range.

Running a distributor with advance curve and timing for a bus..... in an engine set up for D-jet (compression and cam).....runs horribly.

Almost every permutation of the type 4 engine was set up for a dual advance distributor...vacuum and centrifugal two stage. The 009 distributor was actually made for industrial engines....and later dropped into type 1s for quick high advance. It leaves a ton on the table when used in type 4 engine.

There are probably some cams for type 4 that are designed to work with a distributor like a 009....but it really begs the question...what cam do you have in your engine. That knowledge is the only way to figure out what advance curve and distributor you need. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Hello again Ray. Lifters are out and not hydraulic. Rods are aluminum with steel or metal tips. Lifters look good. No scores and came out easily. I removed the exhaust header and tin above it. No evidence of exhaust leakage between cylinder & head but there is where # 1 pipe is fitted to head. There were no copper gaskets/seals between the head and header pipe. The bore in the head is not a circle but kind of oblong as is the header tube. There is a kind of sooty black film in the # 1 tube but #2 tube is dry with out any exhaust residue.
Does the connection on this head require a seal between the header (or heat exchanger) and head?
I've retested leak down after a tighter fit of my test tube in the spark plug hole and it is now closer to the other cylinders. I do hear air escaping but cannot tell if is it at the plug fitting. I'll try to surround the fitting with soapy water and try to look through the shroud opening where the plug wire goes thru.
This may sound crazy but I tried to measure cylinder cc at # 2 using a meat tenderizer injector. Converting the fluid ounces it took to fill the cylinder with piston at BDC to cc's it looks like I may have a 1700 or 1800 engine. I know my method is by no means 100% accurate but close enough to tell the difference of a 2000cc engine I was told I have. The CD case I have is for a 1700 engine. No other way to tell unless I R&I the engine some day.
Please give me your input on the header seals as I want to order parts for reassembly.
Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

David Follett wrote:
Hello again Ray. Lifters are out and not hydraulic. Rods are aluminum with steel or metal tips. Lifters look good. No scores and came out easily. I removed the exhaust header and tin above it. No evidence of exhaust leakage between cylinder & head but there is where # 1 pipe is fitted to head. There were no copper gaskets/seals between the head and header pipe. The bore in the head is not a circle but kind of oblong as is the header tube. There is a kind of sooty black film in the # 1 tube but #2 tube is dry with out any exhaust residue.
Does the connection on this head require a seal between the header (or heat exchanger) and head?
I've retested leak down after a tighter fit of my test tube in the spark plug hole and it is now closer to the other cylinders. I do hear air escaping but cannot tell if is it at the plug fitting. I'll try to surround the fitting with soapy water and try to look through the shroud opening where the plug wire goes thru.
This may sound crazy but I tried to measure cylinder cc at # 2 using a meat tenderizer injector. Converting the fluid ounces it took to fill the cylinder with piston at BDC to cc's it looks like I may have a 1700 or 1800 engine. I know my method is by no means 100% accurate but close enough to tell the difference of a 2000cc engine I was told I have. The CD case I have is for a 1700 engine. No other way to tell unless I R&I the engine some day.
Please give me your input on the header seals as I want to order parts for reassembly.
Dave


Hard to say from the description...which head you have. There were two port shapes.

One is an oval the other is a rectangle with rounded corners. I believe the rectangular ones used gaskets and are flat surrounding the port and the oval one s should have a step or recess around the port for a a copper ring to drop into.

This is a good page from Richard Atwells site. http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Exhaust.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is the oval port...I think this is from Colins site itinerantaircooled.com

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

These are the sealing rings for the oval port

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

These are the rectangular ports

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

These are the rectangular port gaskets.

All of these pics are either from Richard Atwells site or Colin's site

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

We have the oval port. Guess who ever completed the exhaust assembly goofed. Thanks for the photos & other sites. Let you know next week. You have been helpful.
Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Hello Ray if you are still in the loop. Hard to believe but it has been about 2 years since I read your past reply and worked on my engine.
The engine is now finally out and partially disassembled. I must be dreaming but I did see a flame near bottom of # 1 cylinder when we last started it. The r/side head, pistons & cylinders are removed and there is no evidence anywhere of blow by. The exhaust noise was very loud and now I'm thinking it was coming from the header pipe to cylinder head fitting although I did put in a new oval copper gasket. Still confused about the visible flame unless it shot down the side of the cylinder.
Number one cylinder looks badly pitted and/or burned. Compression awhile back was about 95 psi and leak down the other day about 85 psi with 100 psi in cylinder. Number two compression was 110 and leak down at 95-97. Removed and inspected valves and seats. Not perfect but ok to use. No visible cracks at the head or cylinder. Some rust and slight pit marks on the valve springs & retainers. I do remember when I bought the car the engine was in the crankcase oil was milky as if water had gotten into it. So maybe that # 1 cylinder has suffered from water damage.
Sorry to drag that out but I guess the more information I can input will give me a better answer(s).
I do want to replace the pistons & cylinders but confused as to what to use. To regress a bit the engine serial # is CD005520. I believe it is from a 1972 Type 2 with automatic trans. Not sure when but rebuilt by GEX. I know-ugh. I measured the piston travel and seems to be 68-69mm. The cylinder bore is 92mm. Markings on the piston are : SPO,02, 92,98 STD, in a circle are numbers 1/34 and another which is 79. Also a marking of GOYOP with a swigly symbol before it.
Cylinder markings are: raised numbers/letters which may be original- 43 in a circle and the VW logo and p/number 021 101 321S. These I believe are stamped in to head_AX, R, GEX.
No markings on cylinders.
Any idea what size this GEX prize may be?
Can I put a 2.0 kit in this engine if available and do I look for a 69mm stroke? The VW Without Guesswork booklet lists the CD engine at 66mm stroke. Again, the engine has an upright fan housing and dual Webers. I think 40CID?
HELP, Dave in Media, PA wanting to get back on the road again
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Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Quote:

The engine is now finally out and partially disassembled. I must be dreaming but I did see a flame near bottom of # 1 cylinder when we last started it. The r/side head, pistons & cylinders are removed and there is no evidence anywhere of blow by. The exhaust noise was very loud and now I'm thinking it was coming from the header pipe to cylinder head fitting although I did put in a new oval copper gasket. Still confused about the visible flame unless it shot down the side of the cylinder.


So...you have not had the heads off yet right? I can't remember.

But yes...if the exhaust sealing rings are leaking due to poor fit, headers warped or exhaust studs loose...you can see flame in this area. Also...if you are seeing 95 psi on cylinder #1...and that is where you see flame...typically the copper exhaust sealing rings will not have bearing on low compression....but leaking at the cylinder to head sealing area WILL produce low compression and can produce visible flame.

If teh engine was assembled with the factory head gaskets...they can cause burn throughs. This will ruin teh head and the cylinder of left very long at all. There was factory tech bulletin about removing these. The cylinders should be lapped into the head...no head gaskets used.


Quote:
Number one cylinder looks badly pitted and/or burned.


Leaking exhaust gases either way will produce a burned or pitted look on the outside of the cylinder near the leak.



Quote:
Removed and inspected valves and seats. Not perfect but ok to use. No visible cracks at the head or cylinder. Some rust and slight pit marks on the valve springs & retainers. I do remember when I bought the car the engine was in the crankcase oil was milky as if water had gotten into it. So maybe that # 1 cylinder has suffered from water damage.


If you had milky oil....you REALLY need to strip the whole engine down and see what has rusted. This will rust everything when left to sit and will corrode the case sooner or later.

Also its not good to have rust and pit marks on valve springs at all. Those create weak spots...stress risers. The springs can break in those rust spots. Its pretty common. Springs are dirt cheap and can be replaced without removing heads.


Quote:
I do want to replace the pistons & cylinders but confused as to what to use. To regress a bit the engine serial # is CD005520. I believe it is from a 1972 Type 2 with automatic trans. Not sure when but rebuilt by GEX. I know-ugh. I measured the piston travel and seems to be 68-69mm. The cylinder bore is 92mm. Markings on the piston are : SPO,02, 92,98 STD, in a circle are numbers 1/34 and another which is 79. Also a marking of GOYOP with a swigly symbol before it.


A little closer measurements might help. For a 1.7L...which fits the date the engine is supposed to be...a 66mm stroke is stock. If it were upgraded to a 2.0L at one point is could have a 71mm stroke.

The numbers...92.98 STD = 93mm...which is standard size for a 1.8L piston....which also uses a 66mm stroke.

The "GOYOP" mark...I cannot find reference to. Could it possibly be "COFAP"...and could the squiggly symbol look like this?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If so...if both if those are correct..then those are pretty good pistons. They were made in the mid to late 90s by TRW of Brazil (COFAP)...and the pistons were made by Kolbenschmidt....German pistons in Brazilian cylinders. Great piston cylidner sets....and they were very common in the late 90's and early 2000s.

Quote:

Cylinder markings are: raised numbers/letters which may be original- 43 in a circle and the VW logo and p/number 021 101 321S. These I believe are stamped in to head_AX, R, GEX.
No markings on cylinders.

Any idea what size this GEX prize may be?


Do you mean that the "cylinder head" is marked 021 101 321 S?

I will have to check that part number but its not a 1.7L if memory serves. It is probably a 1.8L head...which matches the cylinders too.



Quote:
Can I put a 2.0 kit in this engine if available and do I look for a 69mm stroke? The VW Without Guesswork booklet lists the CD engine at 66mm stroke. Again, the engine has an upright fan housing and dual Webers. I think 40CID?


All of the stock type 4 were either 66 (1.7L and 1.8L) or 71mm (2.0L) stroke.

To go to a 2.0L...which has not that much advantage over a well built 1.8L...you will need...new pistons, cylinders, crank, rods....and probably new heads as even though the 1.8L can be made to work with a 2.0L....the cost for new would be about the same.

The type 4 never came with an upright cooling system...but there are aftermarket and home built that work very well. You need to post some pictures of it because of its done wrong for a type 4...it will be a disaster. You might have something excellent like a Sharp built or a Raby DTM.

Ray
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Thank you Ray.
The 021 p/number is on the cylinder head and the fan housing is a Raby DTM.
Based on your information I'm inclined to believe the stroke is 66mm and the engine to be a 1.8. I measured the piston movement from top to bottom travel while the cylinder was still on and my reading looked like 68-69mm. I will put a cylinder back on and try again. What ever the reading is is this the true crankshaft stroke?
I do not feel confidant to split the case. I will replace the valve springs, pistons and cylinders and cross my fingers.
The photo of the symbol you sent is close but not the same.
Thank you again, Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Ray,
Thanks again for updating me. I'm sure you always have a lot happening all the time and your time devoted to this and other links is appreciated by me and I'm sure many others.
Further and a more accurate measurement gives me a 66mm stroke. Originally I must have measured from the top of the cylinder to the top of piston at the bottom of the stroke and not subtracted the few mm's between piston TDC and top of cylinder. Make sense? Hope so and looks like I have a 1.8 engine.
I have located another of what seems to be the same 93mm p&cyl set.
Can you tell me where to look for replacement valve springs & retainers?
At the rate I've been going it may be late September before we crank it up again.
Dave
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

I do believe I found the exhaust leak. After reinstalling the exhaust manifold & gaskets to the head I poured water into the manifold to try and see leakage at the fitting area. Water poured out of the head at the area between fins near where the valve guide is installed. There is a drilling in the head near both of the exhaust manifold studs. It goes into the area under the exhaust valve. I see threads as if something should be fitted there and can now see how exhaust gas would escape when the valve is open. The head on number 3 & 4 side has one drilling but does not seem to go through and into the chamber.
What should be in those drilled holes? The threads going into the chamber seem to be about 6 or 8mm. I can't believe someone never noticed this after the engine was reassembled and ran it like that. Is it truly a GEX wonder?
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

David Follett wrote:
I do believe I found the exhaust leak. After reinstalling the exhaust manifold & gaskets to the head I poured water into the manifold to try and see leakage at the fitting area. Water poured out of the head at the area between fins near where the valve guide is installed. There is a drilling in the head near both of the exhaust manifold studs. It goes into the area under the exhaust valve. I see threads as if something should be fitted there and can now see how exhaust gas would escape when the valve is open. The head on number 3 & 4 side has one drilling but does not seem to go through and into the chamber.
What should be in those drilled holes? The threads going into the chamber seem to be about 6 or 8mm. I can't believe someone never noticed this after the engine was reassembled and ran it like that. Is it truly a GEX wonder?


Jesus Christ! They gave you Californi only cylinder heads. Those are the holes fof the smog air pump. They are 10mm thread. You cqn thread a bolt into them tight witb locktite and ppug them off.

I hate GEX!
Ray
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David Follett
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: T4 engine Misfire Reply with quote

Thank you again Ray. If I go forward with this can you suggest what P&cylinder set to use and where to get them?
_________________
Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan
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