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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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 Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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So we have The motor back in!
Still having starter issues.
The wire coming from circuit 50 off the ignition switch is hot when the key is turned all th way. When it's off the starter. As soon as I touch the starter with the wire, it's no longer hot.
Starter terminal 30 has the two wires correctly, one from the battery the other going to the voltage regulator.
What gives?
The red wire below is from the switch, ho when off starter. Dead when on starter.
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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rcroane 
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013
Posts: 2000
Location: Springfield, Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I notice that you have two tabs on your starter. I checked mine and there is only one tab (my car is also a '65 and the starter is original to the car). On my starter, I only have the tab that shows on the right side in your picture.
Which tab are you connecting the ignition wire to? I wonder if it makes a difference?
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'65 Sunroof Bug |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| rcroane wrote: |
I notice that you have two tabs on your starter. I checked mine and there is only one tab (my car is also a '65 and the starter is original to the car). On my starter, I only have the tab that shows on the right side in your picture.
Which tab are you connecting the ignition wire to? I wonder if it makes a difference?
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There is no rhyme or reason to the 2-tabs, neither have any matter. Both are soldered to the same post location.
Thank you for comparing your starter.
I'm curious if the starter itself is faulty. It fires up no problem with the push-start (spliced into ignition switch wire with wire coming from battery and push-start) plugged on the top tab shown in the photo.
Ignition switch with its current rigged configuration turned the starter over without the use of the push start once out of the dozen starts the past two days, something's funky!
_________________
The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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rcroane
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013
Posts: 2000
Location: Springfield, Virginia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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If the starter works with the push button, but not the ignition switch, wouldn't that suggest an issue with the ignition switch?
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'65 Sunroof Bug |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| rcroane wrote: |
I notice that you have two tabs on your starter. I checked mine and there is only one tab (my car is also a '65 and the starter is original to the car). On my starter, I only have the tab that shows on the right side in your picture.
Which tab are you connecting the ignition wire to? I wonder if it makes a difference?
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There is no rhyme or reason to the 2-tabs, neither have any matter. Both are soldered to the same post location.
Thank you for comparing your starter.
I'm curious if the starter itself is faulty. It fires up no problem with the push-start (spliced into ignition switch wire with wire coming from battery and push-start) plugged on the top tab shown in the photo.
Ignition switch with its current rigged configuration turned the starter over without the use of the push start once out of the dozen starts the past two days, something's funky! |
To test the starter ( Battery is fully charged) take a remote starter switch and connect between the spade connector on the solenoid and the battery terminal on the starter....Or take a large screwdriver and touch the battery terminal on the starter and the solenoid spade terminal.
When I was a kid and the voltage drop at the solenoid wire to the ignition switch became sufficient to NOT ENERGISE the solenoid and activate the starter I used to park with the rt side of the car on the sidewalk and slide underneath with a large screwdriver and start the car. I got pretty good at it except on wet days. On wet days I parked on a hill up the street.
Image of remote starter switch:
http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/500/555/555-w80586.jpg |
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SamboSamba22
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| rcroane wrote: |
| If the starter works with the push button, but not the ignition switch, wouldn't that suggest an issue with the ignition switch? |
Current ignition switch is a very nice VW switch I bought to replace the believed to be bad original switch, but found out it isn't the switch. Either wiring or starter is culprit. |
Check your voltage drop from the battery to the switch and the drop between switch input to the very end of the wire that goes to the terminal.
By using the remote starter switch or the screwdriver method you are finding which way the problem is at---- the starter and solenoid or the wire to the solenoid back up to the switch, threw the switch to the battery. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:50 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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Run a thicker wire or cable from battery terminal to reach up to the trunk. Touch the wire/cable to each connection under the hood and have a helper try the ignition switch. When you get to the starter side of the problem connection the starter should turn the engine over with no problem. Fix that connection and it should fix the problem. Should meaning it might be more than one problem connection, so you might have to do this a few times.
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In Stereo, Where Available!
Last edited by Eric&Barb on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| rcroane wrote: |
| If the starter works with the push button, but not the ignition switch, wouldn't that suggest an issue with the ignition switch? |
Current ignition switch is a very nice VW switch I bought to replace the believed to be bad original switch, but found out it isn't the switch. Either wiring or starter is culprit. |
Doesn't matter if your ignition switch is nice or not, if you have large enough voltage drop to the switch from the battery or if you have voltage drop from the switch to the solenoid terminal.
This is a age old 6V VW problem and here are the solutions:
1. Switch to 12v. = bandage fix and expensive
2. Install a hard start relay = bandage fix , but cheaper
3. Find the voltage drop and fix the problem = can be time consuming but rewarding to actually find and fix a problem |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Helfen wrote: |
This is a age old 6V VW problem and here are the solutions:
1. Switch to 12v. = bandage fix and expensive
2. Install a hard start relay = bandage fix , but cheaper
3. Find the voltage drop and fix the problem = can be time consuming but rewarding to actually find and fix a problem |
1. Have seen enough 12 volt systems have same problem with voltage drops that need to be fixed.
2. Relay can just as easily not solve starter problem.
3. Plus one makes sure all the other electrical items can work at brightest lights, loud horn, fastest wipers, etc...
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In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:19 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
This is a age old 6V VW problem and here are the solutions:
1. Switch to 12v. = bandage fix and expensive
2. Install a hard start relay = bandage fix , but cheaper
3. Find the voltage drop and fix the problem = can be time consuming but rewarding to actually find and fix a problem |
1. Have seen enough 12 volt systems have same problem with voltage drops that need to be fixed.
2. Relay can just as easily not solve starter problem.
3. Plus one makes sure all the other electrical items can work at brightest lights, loud horn, fastest wipers, etc... |
I agree, but you must admit most people act in accordance with #1 or #2. It was a example. My choice has and always will be #3. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| Helfen wrote: |
I agree, but you must admit most people act in accordance with #1 or #2. It was a example. My choice has and always will be #3. |
Agreed, and knew that. Just adding to what you wrote. Too many think that just going to 12 volt or adding a relay will cure all....
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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Java beetle 65
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2015
Posts: 92
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I had similar problems. If you work through it systematically you can find the fault. I'm not an expert but my electrical problems have forced me to learn. Don't assume anything is broken, otherwise you'll make the same mistake I did and needlessly replace parts. The other suggestions on this forum are good too.
Headlights ok? If not could be bad connections. Unfused power goes to headlight switch first. Or bad battery and/or grounds.
No crank no start - do the dash lights dim slightly when you try starting? If yes then the starter is drawing power but not starting. Clicking sound? If yes could be bad solenoid or voltage drop. Test the voltage at the switch and solenoid end when you turn the key.
No crank no start - if the dash lights don't dim then either the switch is faulty or the wire to the solenoid may be. I had this issue recently. Try hotwiring the car at the switch side. If the starter engages you know the switch is dodgy. Still no starting? Then the wire to the solenoid could be at fault. This happened to me as the previous owner soldered the heavy gauge wire behind the firewall in order to install a 6v hard start relay, this sheared off eventually but was contained within insulation tape so it worked 90% of the time.. Hence the blue wire, originally this was red. Yours looks unmolested but do check for any breaks along this wire.
If you're getting some engagement of the starter but no cranking then could be an issue with insufficient voltage/bad connections, or a mechanical issue with the starter/flywheel engagement.
Crank no start - look at the fuel and ignition systems |
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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Java beetle 65
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2015
Posts: 92
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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I'd do a check on the starter (using remote starter)
Good luck! |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
I'm planning on sorting through all this Saturday.
Switch dims red and green lights upon turning.
This is a very complete, non-hacked car.
Hoping it's just being fussing from age. |
If you have red and green warning lamps going dim when you turn the ignition switch to crank you are not having enough voltage and amperage to energize the solenoid to kick the starter into operation. This is due to voltage drop, but we already told you that before. It could be contacts in the solenoid, but we already told you how ( by taking a screwdriver and touching the starter battery terminal with the solenoid wire terminal ) to eliminate that as a source of the problem. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: The 65 Beetle |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
I'm planning on sorting through all this Saturday.
Switch dims red and green lights upon turning.
This is a very complete, non-hacked car.
Hoping it's just being fussing from age. |
It's probably terminal/connector corrosion/oxidation from age, It can also happen in the wire ends themselves and fuse block. More prevalent in high humidity areas, but given enough time can happen in places like AZ. |
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