| Author |
Message |
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
 Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 1:27 pm Post subject: Doing your own alignment ? |
 |
|
I replaced all 4 tie rod ends and the steering wheel was always off to the right about 10* .
I drove it and now it's off the other way 10* .
Two questions .
1) Since the tie rod adjustment that has the nut are both on the drop arm which makes then really difficult to get at WHAT SORT OF WRENCH DO YOU USE to get at these ? Also what (size) is it ? I used an adjustable wrench and figured it's either 23 or 24 mm . The outer ones have clamps so they are easy. Wish they were both clamps or the nuts were on the wheel end .
2) I keep reading not to adjust the steering box play until after the you replace all the parts that cause play . Shouldn't I adjust the box to the known true center before setting toe ?
I marked the wheels center to the column and drove it to see how far I need to move the wheel position at the tie rod ends yet since the wheel is off to the left and the roads here are so uneven the box play makes getting good marks since with the wheel to the left there is more play . I ended up with 3 marks Centered wheel and another for the smoothest road and one about 1/8" either side of that which all seems to be play and road surface.
If one where to take a car to get it aligned one would adjust all the play out as much as possible so you end up with no more than 1" centered .
I built an adjustable 1 1/2" wide 1/8" thick aluminum bar so I can measure the toe FT and rear of the FT wheels rather than using insane tape measures from the FT tires center threads and I made 12"x12" platforms about 5 " tall to set the front wheels on then raise the rear on jack stands to level the car . |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Doing you own alignment ? |
|
|
| Anyone know what type of wrench I need to get at those tie rod nuts on the drop arm ? the adjustable wrench deal is not close to even good at getting at them even with the wheels off . I need to get at them wheels on. Also what size is that nut 23 or 24mm? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Doing you own alignment ? |
|
|
I got every thing done only one issue . I've read all about the steering boxes in the search here. I have a Bentley and went by that . There is a center ring on the box and I adjusted the play I had in the box and tried it both 90* left and right .
What I first noticed , if I turn the coupling and watch the drop arm it moved up and down and I could hear a slight clunk . I replaced all the tie rod ends and there is not play anywhere other than the box.
I got most of it out yet I still see the drop arm wheel centered and turned 90* left move up and down a bit . I don't see any play in the worm shaft at all. There is still quite a bit of adjustment screw above the lock nut and the box does not bind.
Does it sound like this box has had it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Doing you own alignment ? |
|
|
| blues90 wrote: |
| What I first noticed , if I turn the coupling and watch the drop arm it moved up and down and I could hear a slight clunk . I replaced all the tie rod ends and there is not play anywhere other than the box. |
I had the same thing in a BIG way on my previous TRW box and also have it to a much lesser extent on my used VW box.....it had me wondering if some slight degree of in/out play is okay even if there's no spec for it. Here's my used VW box. It's not bad, yet it is moving in/out. Not sure what it means so maybe I'm just comisserating
Link
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Doing you own alignment ? |
|
|
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| What I first noticed , if I turn the coupling and watch the drop arm it moved up and down and I could hear a slight clunk . I replaced all the tie rod ends and there is not play anywhere other than the box. |
I had the same thing in a BIG way on my previous TRW box and also have it to a much lesser extent on my used VW box.....it had me wondering if some slight degree of in/out play is okay even if there's no spec for it. Here's my used VW box. It's not bad, yet it is moving in/out. Not sure what it means so maybe I'm just comisserating
Link
|
That's about how far mine moves now after I adjusted it twice. I really never noticed it before . The last time I adjusted it was 97 and it didn't move.
All I have to go by are the Bentley and Haynes yet neither mention anything about play other than the two adjustments or how it works . Bentley shows how to rebuild one, sort of a lost art these days.
The play I had was mostly the right inner tie rod end and after replacing all 4 and I drove it I could still feel some play I knew was in the box .
I had masking tape on the column and steering wheel on that drive with a center mark since I had the wheel off by 10* to the right and tried to center the wheel and ended up 10* to the left . I ended up with 4 marks 3 were the play on these crappy surface streets . It's in the 1" acceptable range now . A drive Friday will tell if I got the steering wheel centered.
I wish someone here would chime in about this up/down play it can't be normal . The part that troubles me is that up/down roller movement happens at the same time as the drop arm moves so this adds play.
I had two used boxes I got in 97 yet when I adjusted mine it was fine so I returned them . Wish I kept one so I had something to take apart and figure out what affects what. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
There are three adjustments, but only two of them can be done without disassembling the box:
1) play between the worm and the roller. This is the top adjustment (17mm locknut, slotted stud).
2) axial play of the worm spindle. I think this is what you are seeing. This is adjusted by loosing up the huge locknut and turning the "plug" inward.
3) axial play of the roller. This requires disassembly and replacement of the roller. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
There are three adjustments, but only two of them can be done without disassembling the box:
1) play between the worm and the roller. This is the top adjustment (17mm locknut, slotted stud).
2) axial play of the worm spindle. I think this is what you are seeing. This is adjusted by loosing up the huge locknut and turning the "plug" inward.
3) axial play of the roller. This requires disassembly and replacement of the roller. |
I checked the worm end play and found none . I cleaned the worm shaft from the rag joint to the box and rotated the rag joint while watching for movement there and found none and I checked it three times. There was no in/ out movement of the worm shaft . I didn't adjust it since I have not made a tool to fit the large adjuster there. I would have if I saw movement there.
Best I could do was insert a feeler gauge between the worm and box between the split centering collar that was snug and rotate the worm and I felt no end play rather than just eye balling it per Bentley. The feeler gauge never felt tight of loose . I didn't jamb the gauge in there, just enough to see if the gauge would have more or less drag. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
Drove my 73 SB today after all the tie rod and self alignment work .
The steering wheel is now centered and the play is 1" at the rim of the steering wheel . Finally . Now if I could figure out why the box drop arm has that slight up/down play yet it does track fine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| blues90 wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
There are three adjustments, but only two of them can be done without disassembling the box:
1) play between the worm and the roller. This is the top adjustment (17mm locknut, slotted stud).
2) axial play of the worm spindle. I think this is what you are seeing. This is adjusted by loosing up the huge locknut and turning the "plug" inward.
3) axial play of the roller. This requires disassembly and replacement of the roller. |
I checked the worm end play and found none . I cleaned the worm shaft from the rag joint to the box and rotated the rag joint while watching for movement there and found none and I checked it three times. There was no in/ out movement of the worm shaft . I didn't adjust it since I have not made a tool to fit the large adjuster there. I would have if I saw movement there.
Best I could do was insert a feeler gauge between the worm and box between the split centering collar that was snug and rotate the worm and I felt no end play rather than just eye balling it per Bentley. The feeler gauge never felt tight of loose . I didn't jamb the gauge in there, just enough to see if the gauge would have more or less drag. |
I have the same thing in that there's no play at the input shaft but there's play at the output end. My understanding is that the adjustment of the big nut and recessed screw is for play at the input shaft. I guess play at the output end is a result of wear inside the box. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hnoroian
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2013
Posts: 535
Location: Bakersfield
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
I didn't see anyone mention but did you happen to align it with the front end on the ground or in the air?
_________________
Stupid people do stupid things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
There are three adjustments, but only two of them can be done without disassembling the box:
1) play between the worm and the roller. This is the top adjustment (17mm locknut, slotted stud).
2) axial play of the worm spindle. I think this is what you are seeing. This is adjusted by loosing up the huge locknut and turning the "plug" inward.
3) axial play of the roller. This requires disassembly and replacement of the roller. |
I checked the worm end play and found none . I cleaned the worm shaft from the rag joint to the box and rotated the rag joint while watching for movement there and found none and I checked it three times. There was no in/ out movement of the worm shaft . I didn't adjust it since I have not made a tool to fit the large adjuster there. I would have if I saw movement there.
Best I could do was insert a feeler gauge between the worm and box between the split centering collar that was snug and rotate the worm and I felt no end play rather than just eye balling it per Bentley. The feeler gauge never felt tight of loose . I didn't jamb the gauge in there, just enough to see if the gauge would have more or less drag. |
I have the same thing in that there's no play at the input shaft but there's play at the output end. My understanding is that the adjustment of the big nut and recessed screw is for play at the input shaft. I guess play at the output end is a result of wear inside the box. |
All I have read is if there is play in the roller shaft itself where the roller itself fits into the actual shaft where it has a bearing and small shaft has to much side play you need to replace the entire roller assembly yet I can't see how that affects the up and down play in the drop arm . I can see it adding play because the roller moves side to side yet when you adjust the roller with the screw and lock nut what you are doing is bringing the roller down into the worm more to take up wear on the roller gear itself IE the diameter of the roller wears and bringing it in deeper leads to a larger diameter meshing with the worm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| Hnoroian wrote: |
| I didn't see anyone mention but did you happen to align it with the front end on the ground or in the air? |
I made pads 12" x 12" square and 5" tall and had the rear on jack stands so the car was level then the weight was on the front wheels yet up high enough to get at the tie rod adjustments and I bounced the front end a few good times to settle the front suspension since jacking it up allows the wheels to have too much positive camber. You can't set the alignment with the wheels off the ground and get it right and you need to measure from the rims not the tires . I checked the first time from the tires near the tread yet that brings the measurements out FT and rear by the height of the tires and I ended up with a toe in of over an inch . The spec per Bentley is at the rims . I used the center of the front tires which is wrong . What that does is the same as using larger dia or smaller dia tires . Alignment racks mount to the rims and also factor in tire diameter tire . My car uses stock tire size and height which is what the Bentley specs are 1/8" to 1/4" toe in measured at the rims. So if you mount larger diameter tires you end up with more toe in and if you do it's needs to be set for them. Toe is the difference between the front and rear of the rims adjusted for tire diameter . You may already know this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
|
| Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| blues90 wrote: |
| All I have read is if there is play in the roller shaft itself where the roller itself fits into the actual shaft where it has a bearing and small shaft has to much side play you need to replace the entire roller assembly yet I can't see how that affects the up and down play in the drop arm . I can see it adding play because the roller moves side to side yet when you adjust the roller with the screw and lock nut what you are doing is bringing the roller down into the worm more to take up wear on the roller gear itself IE the diameter of the roller wears and bringing it in deeper leads to a larger diameter meshing with the worm. |
If it still matters, I checked the steering box (TRW, just short of 5 years old) on my Type 1 today and there's the same up and down play on the output shaft as we're both experiencing with our current boxes. For me, that makes 3 boxes (2 TRW and 1 VW) that have a slight amount of in and out play on the output shaft that can't be adjusted away. I tried on the Type 3 to do adjustment #2 that Phil posted above and it had no effect at all on the play.
There's a slight "clunk" from the two boxes I have now and there was a lot of clunk on the box I recently replaced on the Type 3. Other than that, I wonder what the issue is? Or is there no issue? Perhaps it's a case of paying too much attention to something that doesn't matter? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
|
| Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| All I have read is if there is play in the roller shaft itself where the roller itself fits into the actual shaft where it has a bearing and small shaft has to much side play you need to replace the entire roller assembly yet I can't see how that affects the up and down play in the drop arm . I can see it adding play because the roller moves side to side yet when you adjust the roller with the screw and lock nut what you are doing is bringing the roller down into the worm more to take up wear on the roller gear itself IE the diameter of the roller wears and bringing it in deeper leads to a larger diameter meshing with the worm. |
If it still matters, I checked the steering box (TRW, just short of 5 years old) on my Type 1 today and there's the same up and down play on the output shaft as we're both experiencing with our current boxes. For me, that makes 3 boxes (2 TRW and 1 VW) that have a slight amount of in and out play on the output shaft that can't be adjusted away. I tried on the Type 3 to do adjustment #2 that Phil posted above and it had no effect at all on the play.
There's a slight "clunk" from the two boxes I have now and there was a lot of clunk on the box I recently replaced on the Type 3. Other than that, I wonder what the issue is? Or is there no issue? Perhaps it's a case of paying too much attention to something that doesn't matter? |
It's possible Dan . I don't hear any clunk while driving it's only when I sit in the car and rock the wheel L to R . I find I hear it most in the center position and 90* to the right so I adjusted it again 90* to the right but nothing changed. The Bentley says if the play is more on one side than the other adjust it to the loose side yet didn't make any diff . When sitting parked and playing with the wheel it requires more force to turn the wheel than when driving . Bentley just tells you to adjust with wheels off the ground and to test actual play wheels on the ground wheel centered no more than 1" at the rim , yet they say the true test is driving on a turn 10 to 12 MPH the wheel should return at about 45* from the center position the roller is to tight . Page 29 front axle. Well mine returns very close to center about 12* . So I either force the roller screw tighter than just feeling the screw touch which could result in more wear or damage so I'll leave well enough alone. It only states to turn the wheel in the center position L & R to measure the play but not to sit there turning it 90* forcing the box to work harder than it was meant to. I always try to be moving when I turn the wheel even when parallel parking. Same thing with power steering you don't crank it until the p/s belt squeals all this does is wear out the pump and belt .
If I notice more play later on I'll check it again.
I'm not going to worry about it , it does not bind and the wheel returns doing a L or R hand turn right back to the center. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
|
| Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| blues90 wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| All I have read is if there is play in the roller shaft itself where the roller itself fits into the actual shaft where it has a bearing and small shaft has to much side play you need to replace the entire roller assembly yet I can't see how that affects the up and down play in the drop arm . I can see it adding play because the roller moves side to side yet when you adjust the roller with the screw and lock nut what you are doing is bringing the roller down into the worm more to take up wear on the roller gear itself IE the diameter of the roller wears and bringing it in deeper leads to a larger diameter meshing with the worm. |
If it still matters, I checked the steering box (TRW, just short of 5 years old) on my Type 1 today and there's the same up and down play on the output shaft as we're both experiencing with our current boxes. For me, that makes 3 boxes (2 TRW and 1 VW) that have a slight amount of in and out play on the output shaft that can't be adjusted away. I tried on the Type 3 to do adjustment #2 that Phil posted above and it had no effect at all on the play.
There's a slight "clunk" from the two boxes I have now and there was a lot of clunk on the box I recently replaced on the Type 3. Other than that, I wonder what the issue is? Or is there no issue? Perhaps it's a case of paying too much attention to something that doesn't matter? |
It's possible Dan . I don't hear any clunk while driving it's only when I sit in the car and rock the wheel L to R . I find I hear it most in the center position... |
That's exactly the same for me....only when the car is off and I'm sitting there rocking the wheel left to right. I'm not going to worry about it anymore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
If it still matters, I checked the steering box (TRW, just short of 5 years old) on my Type 1 today and there's the same up and down play on the output shaft as we're both experiencing with our current boxes. For me, that makes 3 boxes (2 TRW and 1 VW) that have a slight amount of in and out play on the output shaft that can't be adjusted away. I tried on the Type 3 to do adjustment #2 that Phil posted above and it had no effect at all on the play.
There's a slight "clunk" from the two boxes I have now and there was a lot of clunk on the box I recently replaced on the Type 3. Other than that, I wonder what the issue is? Or is there no issue? Perhaps it's a case of paying too much attention to something that doesn't matter? |
It's possible Dan . I don't hear any clunk while driving it's only when I sit in the car and rock the wheel L to R . I find I hear it most in the center position... |
That's exactly the same for me....only when the car is off and I'm sitting there rocking the wheel left to right. I'm not going to worry about it anymore.[/quote]
I think what you're both hearing is all of the slack in the tie rod ens being taken up. I've heard that sound in 8 different type 3s.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
If it still matters, I checked the steering box (TRW, just short of 5 years old) on my Type 1 today and there's the same up and down play on the output shaft as we're both experiencing with our current boxes. For me, that makes 3 boxes (2 TRW and 1 VW) that have a slight amount of in and out play on the output shaft that can't be adjusted away. I tried on the Type 3 to do adjustment #2 that Phil posted above and it had no effect at all on the play.
There's a slight "clunk" from the two boxes I have now and there was a lot of clunk on the box I recently replaced on the Type 3. Other than that, I wonder what the issue is? Or is there no issue? Perhaps it's a case of paying too much attention to something that doesn't matter? |
It's possible Dan . I don't hear any clunk while driving it's only when I sit in the car and rock the wheel L to R . I find I hear it most in the center position... |
That's exactly the same for me....only when the car is off and I'm sitting there rocking the wheel left to right. I'm not going to worry about it anymore. |
I think what you're both hearing is all of the slack in the tie rod ens being taken up. I've heard that sound in 8 different type 3s.[/quote]
I have been reading/watching this one with interest. Its been easily 20 years since I played with type 1/3 steering boxes but have been into a few and others similar.
Oh....one item.....there "should" be no slack whatsoever to be taken up within the tie rod ends.....that could be making a clunk. My car (s) used the exact same part # of tie rod ends as type 3. I sectioned several or them last year that range from original VW stamped, ocap, TRW etc.
Unless the tie rod ends are worn out.....there is no lateral slack to be taken up because of how the packings are made around the ball. If you want pictures of the sections let me know and I will post them. They are kind of interesting.
Back to the box and the clunk......and most importantly. ...that vertical lifting of the end of the drop arm..
So we see the two adjustments in the box.....the big ring nut....which is axial adjustment of the driving worm attached to the steering wheel. Taking up slack here properly....and its not just to take up slack.....its to set bearing pre-load....of which there should be some.....and I can't believe the Bentley has no setting for worm gear ball bearing preload.
The book just notes to slowly increase adjustment on the worm spindle until play "JUST" disappears.....which I suppose is a useful form or preload adjustment.
And of course the top cover adjustment that adjusts gap/preload between roller and worm.
But.....neither of these is really what causes the drop arm/pitman arm to rock. What causes that is excessive slack in the actual bore in the housing that supports the pitman shaft on its way out of the steering box case.
The Bentley does not show a section of this part of the housing and I can't for the life of me remember but there should either be a bushing inside of the case snout to support the pitman/output shaft.....laterally/radially.....just inboard of the pitman arm seal.....or it may just run against the case.
Either way.....what this causes......is the pitman shaft to move even say.....001" to .003" or more....fore and aft in its bore in the case.
If there were no pitman arm attached to the shaft......you would not be able to see this small movement without putting a dial indicator on it.
But....attach an arm to it....by you get to the end of the arm that play is multipled by the length to be as much as 1/32" or 1/16"......is visible.
Also....you will hear a clunk as the shaft changes direction an loads up against one side or the other of the output shaft bore.
Bet money if you remove the pitman shaft from the box....you no longer hear the clunk if you have the wheels off the ground and move the steering by pulling on the tie rods.
The tough part is that trying to get rid of this pitman shaft radial movement in the case by tightening the rolller or the worm....will cause you to apply far to much tension to both parts....causing possibly more rapid wear.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Either way.....what this causes......is the pitman shaft to move even say.....001" to .003" or more....fore and aft in its bore in the case.
If there were no pitman arm attached to the shaft......you would not be able to see this small movement without putting a dial indicator on it.
But....attach an arm to it....by you get to the end of the arm that play is multipled by the length to be as much as 1/32" or 1/16"......is visible.
Also....you will hear a clunk as the shaft changes direction an loads up against one side or the other of the output shaft bore.
Bet money if you remove the pitman shaft from the box....you no longer hear the clunk if you have the wheels off the ground and move the steering by pulling on the tie rods.
The tough part is that trying to get rid of this pitman shaft radial movement in the case by tightening the rolller or the worm....will cause you to apply far to much tension to both parts....causing possibly more rapid wear.
Ray |
So, the movent (up/down) of the pitman arm is normal, and the thunk everyone hears is just the gears in the box changing direction. Ok.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun May 08, 2016 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Doing your own alignment ? |
|
|
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Either way.....what this causes......is the pitman shaft to move even say.....001" to .003" or more....fore and aft in its bore in the case.
If there were no pitman arm attached to the shaft......you would not be able to see this small movement without putting a dial indicator on it.
But....attach an arm to it....by you get to the end of the arm that play is multipled by the length to be as much as 1/32" or 1/16"......is visible.
Also....you will hear a clunk as the shaft changes direction an loads up against one side or the other of the output shaft bore.
Bet money if you remove the pitman shaft from the box....you no longer hear the clunk if you have the wheels off the ground and move the steering by pulling on the tie rods.
The tough part is that trying to get rid of this pitman shaft radial movement in the case by tightening the rolller or the worm....will cause you to apply far to much tension to both parts....causing possibly more rapid wear.
Ray |
So, the movent (up/down) of the pitman arm is normal, and the thunk everyone hears is just the gears in the box changing direction. Ok. |
Actually I dont know if would go as far as to say its normal. I would go as far as to say that steering wise it may no be a problem....for types 1 and 3.
Its not actually the gears themselves making the clunk by hammering against each other as they change direction. Its the 3 vertical shaft....the pitman shaft....that is coming up against the walls in its bore as the gear train changes direction.
It would be visually noticable ....as movement at the outer end of the pitman are.....if there is excessive tolerance between the bore and the pitman shaft.
It manifests itself as an angle change because the fore and aft movement starts at the inner end at the roller.
This is exactly like the movement problem in a distributor shaft when the lower bushing is shot and there is also excessive play between the drive dog and the end of the distributor body. It manifests itself at rotor end by excessive side to side play of the shaft.........which is only allowed to move so far as the opposite end of the shaft omes up hard against the bushing inside the body. So the shaft is actually cocked at a very slight angle.
If the rotor were long enough you would see the end dip up and down in a "helicopter" fashion.
The nice thing about type 1 (except super beetle) and type 3 is that technically you dont have a centerlink or center tie rod. In the super and in the 412.....this vertical motion of the pitman arm destroys the centerlink over tike because the centerlink rotating pins are NOT ball joints like the tie rod ends.
The only issue I see except very long term. ...is that as the pitman arm shaft seal gets gets older and stiffer.....the radial motion will cause te sealclip to crack and leak.
The problem....unless there is a bushing in the bore to keep tye pitman arm centeredm...is that the tolerance from bore to shaft is slightly excessive.
I think I remember reading that the bus guys have had some issues with quality of replacement steering box machine work as well.
One way you could verify if this is causing the clunking noise.....is to temporarily install a thin sppit shaft colllar between the pitman arm and the end face seal of the steering box casting....or the hard way is to remove the pitman arm and install a tight fit stack of washers between pitman arm and steering box casting.....a packing.
This will not let the pitman arm pivot....which in turn will not let the shaft inside come up hard against the wall of the bore....creating the clunk. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
