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69 SB lugs
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chastings
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Location: Rapid City, SD
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

My 69 has had issues for awhile, and the uses change. my local VW place has had it all but 2 weeks since November.
Most recently I had it for 1 day. Ran great day 1. Next day started slow; I had to keep my foot DOWN on the accelerator pedal to get it to catch. Ran great after 2 minutes. Too it to vw. they adjusted the rpm up. Ran great for 4 minutes (al the way to work). 4 hours later I started it. First time in 6 months t started without pushing the gas. It ran fine for 1/2 mile, then it backfired and dropped to 18 mph. Would not go faster. After about 5 minutes it backfired again, zoomed up to 35, stayed there for 1 block, backfired again, and dropped to 18 for the next 10 minutes. This was with my foot pushed to the floorboards.
They've replaced most of the fuel injection stuff. Also steamcleaned the fuel tank and replaced the filter.
I think it feels kinds like timing tho?
Any ideas?
TIA,C
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

If the local VW place tried to fix it by changing out expensive FI components instead of doing a proper diagnosis, I'd be looking for another shop.

VW said time and time again to make sure all else was proper before suspecting the FI, and it was good advice.

Start with ignition. See if your timing is consistent, and if the advance works smoothly and correctly.

Make sure you have NO vacuum leaks. That means every hose (whether it looks good or not), and injector seals.

Check the condition of the wiring, especially the connectors throughout the system.

This all costs nothing but will typically find something like 90% of supposed "FI problems."
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chastings
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

There is no other shop. Sigh. The only classic VW guy in Rapid City quit about 9 years ago. VW has one technician that kinda knows classics. And I keep hearing from them that I should swap to carbs.
I'll try the vacuum thing and the timing thing. I wonder too if some of my harness isn't grounding out.
Thanks all!
C
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

chastings wrote:
There is no other shop. Sigh. The only classic VW guy in Rapid City quit about 9 years ago. VW has one technician that kinda knows classics. And I keep hearing from them that I should swap to carbs.
I'll try the vacuum thing and the timing thing. I wonder too if some of my harness isn't grounding out.
Thanks all!
C

Chastings, I may have left a note on your squareback when it was parked at a Walgreens one evening. There’s one guy that may be able to assist you in figuring out your FI issue. His work schedule sucks as he works afternoons into the late night. He had a 70 FI and sorted it out and got his running until he had to part with it due to other reasons. I’ll reach out to him and ask if he’s ok with you contacting him for some assistance. I’ll reach out via PM this evening.
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chastings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

I took SB home ad started driving her.
I'm GONNA figure it out or die trying.

She takes a while and the accelerator pressed to the floor for the first start in the morning. 75 degrees ish.
She struggles for the first 3 minutes or so unless I have the accelerator pressed to the floor.
After that 3 minutes, as long as I rev the engine over 2000k rpm, she doesn't lug too badly. If I just shift into gear and take off like in a car that's running correctly, she hesitates until the rpm builds to 1300+, then she acts like a car that's running correctly.
This weekend I'm gonna check the timing. When Volkswagen first starting playing with her in November, one of the things they did was lube and free the distributor weights. I still think that has something to do with it.
Thanks all
C
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Is the poor running more like "sluggish" or "lumpy"?
If sluggish, I'd look for timing issues and perhaps vacuum leaks.
If it is lumpy, then I wonder if one injector or its wiring is funky.

Start with easy things first... make sure the ignition system is set right and then move on to vacuum leaks, and then the wiring.

Have you or they measured fuel pressure? 28psi is what you want.

Does the MPS hold vacuum?

These are the basics of getting it to run or run better. Failures get more esoteric after this but are rare.

At some point after these easier checks, you may need to pull injector pairs and see how they are squirting. I'd look for injector seals and paper intake spacer gaskets now, so you can R&R the injectors without getting stuck for parts. Good to have on board anyway.
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chastings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Its sluggish. It feels like a suburban I had that had electric trailer brakes; occasionally when I was pulling the trailer, the brakes would get activated. Its like I have all this power waiting to be unleashed but I'm also carrying a huge load.
I checked for vacuum leaks last week. I replaced several hoses that looked as though they were original.
Wiring is old. The insulation is brittle. I just dont want to pay the 600 for a new loom right now if I dont have to. And onset was sudden; it ran fine, then it didn't. Then the mechanic touched it and it ran pretty poorly.
The mechanic said he measured the fuel pressure. I'll do it again. I think he said it was at 31 or 32? He also said the injectors squirt nicely. He's convinced its the FI and I should replace it with carbs.
How do I check that the MPS holds a vacuum?
Thanks!
C
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

He's no air cooled expert if his answer is to switch to carbs! Sucks that you are stuck with this guy. Is this a daily driver for you? Tough to learn FI on a DD. If you have spare transportation then YOU will become the local expert!

A few pointers:
- Hoses can look fine but still leak. unless they are new, or fit tightly, assume they leak.
- Check the injector seals (you'll need a light and mirror, or a cheap Harbor Freight probe camera.
- Test the MPS with a spare hose and the tip of your tongue. Pull and hold a vacuum; it shouldn't drop for at least 20-30 seconds (never is best).
- 32psi is too much fuel pressure for this system. 28 is right, and up to 30 is tolerable. Outside this range the injector spray is not right and that will cause the oddity of lean mixtures but gas smell in the exhaust (because it's not all burning).
- What is your regulated voltage? Minimum is about 13 volts, 14 is better. (It will operate a little below 10 but the mixture will be off.
- Is your throttle cable adjusted to give you full open throttle?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Tram clamps his 02 sniffer on my tailpipe & adjusts the air/fuel mixture on my MPS with small screw driver, while it is running. It has been running fine for the last 3 years without any adjustments.
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chastings
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

I asked vw to check the exhaust. I was told it wasn't necessary. Funny; my book says it's impossible to do it correctly without the exhaust check.
It was a daily driver. It's not now but I'm driving it anyway to force myself to fix if.
Thanks for the advice guys. Im installing a front main seal in my convertible TM, then I'll play with SB.
C
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chastings
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

The timing was pretty hard to check, but its done. It was spot on with the mark (made by a PO?). But the idle was fine when I checked it. So I'm gonna keep the light in the car and check it when its idling up and down.
I found another vacuum that's probably bad. Definitely loose. Its on the right side of the engine, and goes to the temperature sensor (I Think)
I didn't check the fuel pressure. I couldn't find my gauge.
I'll keep ya'll posted, and thanks again!
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chastings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

How do I know if the sensor (the one that fits where the fuel pump should go) is working when its supposed to?
I pulled it out, cleaned it up, put it in boiling water and it shuts almost completely off. In cool water its open.

There was a hose that was disconnected. Went from some canister (looks like a distributor vacuum, has an adjustment bolt, right side front of the engine) to a fitting under the air manifold. Installed a new hose. What does the adjustment bold adjust?

New mechanic (whom I wont use again) replaced my air manifold. Left the throttle plate electrical connector (which now has a 4-wire connector) disconnected from the old two wire connector. Which of the new 4 spades should be connected to the 2 old wires?

Checked the timing AGAIN!!! Still where its supposed to be. Valves are good too!!!

Thanks all...
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rosevillain
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Do you have a bently manual for your car? The fuel injection section is very good.

Sounds like your auxiliary air regulator is working fine.

Right side front of engine- could be fuel pressure regulator but not likely. Could be pressure switch- more likely. If it was disconnected, it would be a vacuum leak and would cause your engine to hunt at idle. Might cause a low power kind of issue. If it is the pressure switch, there is no adjustment, the screw is for the cover.

The 2 wire switch is for deceleration, the four wire switch is for both deceleration, and full-load. You will have to figure out which wires go where. The wiring diagrams from the Brown Bently manual would help, so would Russ' site, but it doesn't work anymore.

I wonder if you should check that your ecu is compatible with your mps? At this point, there's no telling what the mehacknics have done...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

rosevillain wrote:

I wonder if you should check that your ecu is compatible with your mps? At this point, there's no telling what the mehacknics have done...


Yes, he's apparently mixing up TVSs so who knows what else he has swapped.

It's too bad you have to deal with his incompetence. But if you can check part numbers on what you have, we can get you straight again, with a minimum of expensive new parts.
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nogoodwithusernames
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

While I can't give too much input, I do know that these guys know what they are talking about. My square came with the factory EFI and it ran great, Side note: I've since switched it out for Megasquirt EFI system for fuel and spark due to the flexibility and building a bigger engine but the D-Jet system works great when you've made sure the system is in good condition.
I've also got the factory D-Jet in my Porsche 914 which runs like a dream.
So stick with it and be thorough in your testing and checking of everything.
Like they've already said, look at all your components like the ECU, TPS etc and make sure they are all matching so they play well together. I'm sure someone will post up the page that shows which numbers go with which, as I don't have it.
Then of course check timing and spark, all the vacuum lines and seals, fuel pressure etc.

Basically listen to these guys, they know what's what and will get you going.
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(Conversion thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732508&highlight= or https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=151375&sid=f0542d44a322d290c29d6609fac7f215 )
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

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chastings
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Mps = manifold?
The huge part that looks like a throttle body?
Thanks!
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chastings
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

Wait no belay that the MPS is the round part on the left side of the engine.
I think.
VW replaced it with a new one. It holds vacuum
Would pix help?
I'll get pix.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

chastings wrote:
Mps = manifold?
The huge part that looks like a throttle body?
Thanks!


That's the IAD (Intake Air Distributor)
And yes, the MPS (Manifold Pressure Sensor) is the baseball-sized metal gizmo bolted up under the left side of the engine bay.
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chastings
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: 69 SB lugs Reply with quote

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