Proper cruising RPM.

[Q-Dog]

It was mentioned earlier but I didn't see an answer. Are you running the oil cooler exit tin? #14 shown here?

My buggy oil temps seemed high on the interstate so I installed this and the forward tin, #17. I think it helps keep the hot air from the oil cooler out of the fan.
_________________
Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle

[vwracerdave]

Cooling the oil with an auxillary oil cooler only solves the small portion of your problem. You must have air to cool the heads and the reduced RPM slows down the fan to the point of not having enough air to cool the heads. The ugly result of overheating the heads could be a dropped valve and a destroyed engine.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[didget69]

Swap the front tires to the rear & see if your temps drop...

bnc
_________________
I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[Q-Dog]

[didget69]

Grab a cold beverage... http://www.offroadvw.net/tech/wes/fan.html

bnc
_________________
I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

[didget69]

Rear tires too tall for the gearing.

I'm done.

bnc
_________________
I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[vincent9993]

I've been following this thread and I just finished re-reading it again.

Let me 1st start by saying that I'm not a keyboard jockey and actually have real world experience on 2 different buggies with 2 different engines.

Berrien (Manx Clone) with 1600 dual carb, Sidewinder exhaust 255/60R14.
Kick-Out-S.S. with 1776 dual carb, 110 cam, polished heads, Sidewinder exhaust 255/50R16.

Both use stock gearing and although tires are a little taller than stock They're running at 3,200 RPM at 62mph (or around that).

Both buggy experienced the very similar situations you describe. Run @ 60mph all day long and oil temp remains around 220°F but once you pin the speedometer at 65mph, the oil temp start climbing after a few hours.

We drive freeway a lot and we find ourselves running at 3,750rpm most of the morning but after 4h, we have to start to dial it back to 60-62mph to maintain sub 240°F.

I went down the similar experiments that have been mentioned here including investigating if wind direction may be playing a role in routing hot air from cooler exit to fan inlet.
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=368372

Adding oil cooler tins (including hoover bit) did not play a measurable role in modifying the results.

Wind direction does play a big role in the oil temp but not on hot air being routed to fan inlet but more to do with greater aero drag. A 10mph head wind is equivalent to driving 10mph faster from a required force point of view and you 'probably' have less cooling as your engine is moving less cooling air.

On a return trip from California, we were able to follow a Volvo station wagon with a luggage carrier on the roof (at a safe but close distance) for over 250 miles and we were able to maintain sub 240°F while cruising at 65mph.

More recently, on our trip to Key West this summer, we were leading the group with the Berrien and in the afternoon, I would pass the lead to another buggy and 'draft' behind it at 65mph. We saw oil temps drop from above 245°F to below 240°F after about 20 minutes of drafting.

I came across a thesis of students that studied the cooling of an aircooled vw inefficiencies. They were able to measure that the V-Belt start to slip at 4,000rpm.
http://www.offroadvw.net/tech/wes/fan.html

All this to say that what you are experiencing, is in line with what we've seen in driving our buggies over 150,000 miles on freeway in the past 10 years.

[joescoolcustoms]

I have followed Vincent for a vast majority of the 37,000 miles I have put on my buggy in 26 months. Lots of interstate driving. Vincent even followed me in Saskatchewan to pick up my draft and cool his oil.

In reading all this, I am of the opinion the problem may be in the engine and that an additional separate fan cooled oil cooler may solve the oil temp issue.

My engine is a 2165 cc with 8.6:1 compression. I run dual 36 mm Dells, FK7 cam and 1.4 rockers. I run a thin 1 quart extra CB Sump, full flow with 3/4 quart oil filter and the largest Mesa plate oil cooler with a thermostat controlled fan to come on at 185* F. I run BP 30 weight oil. 3000 rpm cruising, oil pressure is 50 PSI.

My Transaxle is custom. I built a 4.12 R&P, 4th gear set of 0.82 out of a 002 bus box. I run a 235 75 15 rear tire at 28.65 inch new, but only run 15 pounds in it. My buggy is very heavy at 2020 pounds empty, and most likely with tools, luggage, spare parts, additional adult passenger, extra fuel, cooler, it may roll at 3000 pounds travel weight driving. My windshield is 1 7/8 inch taller than a normal buggy, and it sets at 11 inches ground clearance, so I push a lot of wind.

At 70 MPH long run, the rpm is right at 2850 to 2900. On a hot day, 90*F, the oil temp runs a consistent 195 to 200*F
At 80 MPH long run, the oil heats to 205 to 210*F. My oil temp is located right before the oil returns into the engine case from the full flow system, then goes through the original dog house cooler before feeding the crank/cam.

The last weekend in July, I ran from Charleston WV to Anderson SC to meet the ECV Keys group Vincent was leading on their return trip from the FL Keys. The thermostat went bad and my auxilary cooling fan on the additional oil cooler failed to run. While running 75 MPH, my oil started to run hotter up to 220* F. Hotter than when we crossed the desert in '14 with 120*+ air temps. I got Behind a BMW running about 82 MPH and followed him for about 60 miles in 90*+ air temps on I-85 between Charlotte and Greenville. The oil temp heated to 230 to 235*F.

My head temp varies little. Unloaded to climbing hills loaded is 340 to 355*F. Temp taken under # 3 plug.

So, the large tires, low rpm is not a factor, for me. The addition of the extra oil cooler, (I still have the stock dog house on it and functioning) makes a large difference, and the benefit of the extra cooling fan for it showed up once the thermo failed to turn it on.

I suggest full flowing any engine over 1776. I also suggest adding a extra cooler with a fan on a engine that will get used to drive modern interstate speeds on a regular basis.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[joescoolcustoms]

This is the exact fan and oil cooler I run on my full flow system.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=643357
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[hillmotorsports]

Joe
Sems your experience would suggest the vendor of the cooler/fan is slightly (?) optimistic with their "180° all day...." claim?

I too have been following this thread with great interest as I am debating the best engine options for our Tow'd build.

A lot of what I have read gives me pause....

Were we just blissfully naive way back when as we ran our 40 hp bugs hours on end flat out for hours on end at 70 mph on the slab? Or was there truly no issue with the oil temps on a stock 60s Beetle?

There seem to be more opinions than people....
_________________
Rosemarie and Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario

(With way more projects than spare time!)

[joescoolcustoms]

Bruce Meyers call those gauges in my buggy "Worry Gauges". "You see them, and you worry."

He says they take the fun out of the buggy driving experience.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.

Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone

[hillmotorsports]

I've heard Bruce's speel about "worry gauges". He similarly seems to be largely anti throttle pedals as he only knows one speed....flat out! He'll also tell you that he never expected to live this long or he might have considered taking better care of himself, as well as some better choices.....

But I still am asking the same question:
We were just ignorant of how hot the oil was getting when we pushed our Beetles so hard in the 60's or was there truly no problem?
What's different now that is causing the high oil temps?
_________________
Rosemarie and Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario

(With way more projects than spare time!)

[vincent9993]

My take on it Paul is that the Beetle has actually quite better aerodynamic properties than an open buggy. The flat windshield acts like a big airplane aerobrake. I get better fuel mileage and lower oil temps when I put the roof on...

[joescoolcustoms]

[hillmotorsports]

Thanks Vincent and Joe. Your miles toured and multiple buggies driven gives me some confidence in your opinions rather than rely on theories.

So....is there such thing as a "bible" of recipes for successful engine builds? Sometimes it is tough to separate fact from sales hype when searching for info on components. As demonstrated by Joe's cooler supplier, some are slight exaggerations, but how do you tell them from pure bs artists? And as always, you need to recognize the great suppliers from the con artists who only want to take your money with no regard to how appropriate their part is for your application.

Tough for the rookie to know what's best....I know, "best" in this case is subjective, will depend on many variables. But there are a world of options concerning parts combinations that positively will NOT work well together and will be a total waste of time and money. Those are the ones that need to be avoided...but how do you know which is which?

There is probably nothing more frustrating for newbies, nothing that will chase away someone new to air-cooled buggies, than chasing down the wrong rabbit hole with a dud motor.

Enlighten us plz someone!
_________________
Rosemarie and Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario

(With way more projects than spare time!)

[vwracerdave]

I suggest all Buggy owners that want to really learn about the inner workings of a VW engine to get out of this Buggy forum and spend a lot of time reading the Performance Engine thread. No disrespect to anybody but some people that only own a Buggy and have no further VW experience is missing a lot of knowledge from listening to the other Bug, Bus, Ghia etc. guys and their challenges.

Nobody in this thread has mentioned the OP has a bad mismatch of cam & heads that is causing his overheating problems.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[Singerdude]

I have a 2276, K8, 1.4s, webber 44's, 1 5/8 sidewinder, full flowed and ridiculously large 295/55/15 rubbers... 4.12 r&p with .82 4th.

A couple weeks ago My cheap auxilliary oil cooler started to piss oil all over the tranny. I was at a gas station and did quite a mess next to the tanks. After cleaning everything up, I disconnected it right there and kept on rolling with only the doghouse. I have a replacement now but haven't installed it yet.

At 70 mph +/- 3000 rpms it runs about 190 during the night and in the hot summer days (90's) it will hover around 200-210 and maybe go up to 220 if i drive up a long hill in the mountains... If I go faster than 3400 rpms it gets slightly higher in temps but I usually get tired of the wind so I don't sustain these speeds for extended periods of time anyway.

That said I don't baby it either, I step hard on it in coming on the highway, overtaking or pretty much any chance I get because come on, Big bore torque in a light car is a blast it sees 6000 in third a few times in a day...

To Hillmotorsports: I've learned a lot from vwracerdave and the other good folks over in the performance engine thread. There is indeed a sticky for proven build recipes http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

It took me 2 very frustrating years, a turnkey engine re-built twice and a lot of money to finally get an engine that I like and feel confident taking on long road trips. I started out a COMPLETE idiot and worse: I kinda discarded the answers that I didn't like in the beginning... I learned the hard way. But there are some very knowledgeable folks that can help you in your quest: vwracerdave, Modok, Jfats, Slalombuggy, John @ aircooled.net, Alstrup, Pat Downs @ CB performance, Roy @Mofoco, Mark Tucker and some others that I forget off the top of my head. You can count on these guys being right 99% of the time. Remember that the search engine is your friend, but if you don't find anything on your topic, don't be shy to ask questions. Better to feel stupid behind your keyboard than on the side of the road

Now I have proudly graduated to PARTIAL idiot and ride my buggy away in the sunset laughing

[Skulptorchaz]

Good Morning Gents,
First off THANK YOU ALL for the posts!! I'm learning more everyday.
Second of all, a personal thank you, to you Joe, I hope to shake your hand someday.
I had the engine built by a company 13 years ago because I do not want to be an engine guru. I trusted what they did. I guess I could read a library of books and become a VW engine builder but, I would rather "ask" about such stuff and stick with what I know - fabrication. And if I can be of some help to someone in that regards, I'll bend over backwards to do so.
I guess I could also frequent the engine forum, and maybe that is a good idea but, I just have become accustomed to chatting with you all, my fellow buggy owners, and I like that. It feels more like I am talking to friends.
I've never heard the term "worry gauges". I guess for me, they are "non-worry" gauges - kinda the opposite. AND, I sure am glad I had them in this new adventure. Once everything is straightened out, down the road, they might just be ornaments on my dash.
In rereading your "spec" post, Joe, it would seems that a large part of my issue could be the motor, more specifically the heads. And like I have mentioned before, that is something that will get changed over the winter (along with other larger mods). Hopefully heads will help in the cooling but I know it will certainly help in the performance.
A couple physical attributes are my tires are 27" tall and the windshield is 15 1/2'' tall and leaned back.
I wish I knew if the engine is "full flowed" but I do not. Sounds like something to do this winter as well.
Thanks again to all those who have posted. It seems, and i hope, this has been a helpful thread for more people than me.
More to come...

[hillmotorsports]

Chaz
A quick.glance at your motor will tell you if it full flow...if it is there wI'll be oil lines/hoses coming from the oil pump (square plate beneath the lower pulley) cover going to a remote spin-on oil filter.
Simple ...no hoses, no full flow!
If you do not have a full flow oil system make some.plans to add it over the winter, perhaps with an additional.cooler and thermostat.
_________________
Rosemarie and Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario

(With way more projects than spare time!)