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gcbbug Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2007 Posts: 274 Location: Boise Idaho
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: Wiring to coil |
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Hi, I've looked through a lot of video's and other information on what wires are hooked to the coil + and - and have found all to be very vague. Can anybody show me a clear picture or other information on what goes where to the coil? Please save me....
Jerry |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3889 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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In the above diagram, "15" is another name for "+", and "1" means "-". _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31271 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Yep, that diagram is correct, let that be your guide. Once it's running, you can add a tachometer feeding signal from coil negative terminal #1.
Myself, and others here, have added an inline fuse to the the wire going back to the coil positive terminal #15, add at the fuse box end because this wire is typically not fuse-protected. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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gcbbug Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2007 Posts: 274 Location: Boise Idaho
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Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Thanks Glenn, that's an awesome diagram that settles the problem that I had. It should be put into the Bentley manual or Keep your Volkswagen alive. The Bug Me video's don't even show it. I did have all the wiring marked when I took it apart but circumstances delayed getting back to it for two years and that was just too long for the marks to be legible. Bravo!! |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Sorry to jump on this thread, but I am in crisis mode!!!
i am having an issue with the wiring to my coil and the above diagram seems to only have 4 wires total that come off of it (not including the coil wire) 3 black and 1 green.
mine has 5 total wires. 4 black and a green.
what type of car and whats in engine.....79SB, 1600CC, run of the mill Solex carb and brand New 12V Bosch Coil (just your normal stock coil)
I have 1 single black wire hooked to #1 side which is connected to distributor.
I have double black hooked to #15 side which in connected to the reverse lights.
I have 1 single green wire hooked to #15 side which is connected to the carb.
I have single black hooked to #15 side that goes into the inline fuse
my problem is as follows....
car does not start. ING and alt lights come on in speedo when I turn key and I hear the fuel pump, but nothing...no start. EVERYTHING WAS FINE WHEN I DROVE IT AROUND FOR OVER AN HOUR...NOW IT DOES NOT START. NOT EVEN A "CLICK"
I am getting fuel to carb, the points opened when I had the old coil hooked up. battery is fully charged.
I thought that buying a new coil would be an easy fix, but I guess NOT...
I hooked the wires up from the old coil excatally to the new coil.
any ideas? PLEASE HELP. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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79bugman wrote: |
I have 1 single black wire hooked to #1 side which is connected to distributor.
I have 1 single green wire hooked to #15 side which is connected to the carb. |
This is strange. Points/condenser wires are typically green. So I would expect the wire running to the distributor to be green not black. If you were running an electronic points module I would expect two wires from the distributor to the coil. One black to the #1 terminal and one red to the #15 terminal. This red wire would count as one more wire on the #15, but it doesn't sound like you have a electric points module.
The green wire that runs between the #15 and the carb, what does it connect to on the carb? The idle cutoff solenoid? The choke coil?
Normally, there is one black wire running from the #15 terminal to the cutoff and then it daisy-chains to the choke coil. If these were split into two separate wires it would explain the increased number of wires.
79bugman wrote: |
I have double black hooked to #15 side which in connected to the reverse lights.
I have single black hooked to #15 side that goes into the inline fuse |
This doesn't sound correct. Normally, there is one black wire from #15 that first goes to an inline 8A fuse. This wire then continues on around the right side of the fan shroud to the reverse light switch on the front end of the transmission.
So, where does the fused wire go? You mention "double black" wire to the reverse lights. Only one is needed so where does the second wire go?
79bugman wrote: |
my problem is as follows....
car does not start. ING and alt lights come on in speedo when I turn key and I hear the fuel pump, but nothing...no start. EVERYTHING WAS FINE WHEN I DROVE IT AROUND FOR OVER AN HOUR...NOW IT DOES NOT START. NOT EVEN A "CLICK" |
Check the following....
What is the voltage at the #15 terminal of the ignition coil with the ignition ON? What is the voltage when you turn the key to START? Sometimes the ignition switch goes bad and there is voltage while ON but nothing when at START.
Lift the rear seat and find the #50 wire. It is a heavier gauge red/black wire
that exits at the rear of the floor pan along the center tunnel. There is a junction just before it exits. Disconnect the two wires here and test the one coming from the left side. There should be 12v on this wire when you turn the ignition switch to START.
For the other wire that exits at the rear of the pan... put the car in neutral and set the parking brake. Touch this wire to the battery positive terminal (use jumper cables if not long enough). This should cause the starter to crank the engine. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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johneliot Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 2189 Location: Chico, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Actually, you need to thank Speedy Jim.
http://www.speedyjim.net _________________ John
There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress.
Mark Twain
69 bug - "The Grey Ghost" |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Thanks Ashman for the response as detailed as ever...
OK...this is what I did per your response...
I don't think I have a electric points module because I don't know what that is...lol
I checked all wires and this is what I found...
#15 single black wire W/inline fuse goes to front of transmission.
#15 single green wire goes to cutoff solenoid then goes to choke. (i think you called this a daisy chain)
#15 double black wire goes inside a wiring harness and into the rear of the car on driver side under rear seat. THIS IS WEIRD....FOLLOW ME...one of the wires goes to nothing! I have this capped off with a wire nut...HUH, why is that??? the other wire I assume is going to S12. I did not take my fuse panel out to verify this, but it is a good guess.
#1 single black wire goes directly to the distributor.
I checked the following....
Battery Voltage = 12.93V.
Voltage at the #15 terminal of the ignition coil with the ignition ON =11.93V
I checked all 3 terminals on the #15 side and all are exactaly as stated above (double black wire, green wire & single black wire)
Voltage when you turn the key to START = begins around 11V. when I hold the key in the "Start" position the Voltage steadily drops to around 9.93V until I let the key go. Once I let the key go, I hear a "click" (I think it is coming from the starter.)
I checked all 3 terminals on the #15 side and all are exactaly as stated above. (double black wire, green wire & single black wire.)
FOLLOW ME HERE..... I also checked the #1 side and everything I stated above is the same for all 3 #1 terminals with Ignition On and in Start...IS THIS CORRECT? I thought #1 was negative.
as for the Black/red #50 wire and checking for 12V....I located this wire but I did not do your test because I don't want to mess anything up due to the following....
The Black/red wire (i believe) is hooked directly to the starter from the ignition switch. I did not take the ignition apart verify, but I am pretty sure I am correct on this one. My wiring diagram shows 2 black/red wires but I believe since I no longer have fuel injection, the second black/red was eliminated that would go to the electronic control unit (not sure of this statement) (i'm guessing)
I will wait to hear back from you prior to moving forward.
I hope my info is helpful to you to help me trouble shoot this issue!
Thanks again |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9665 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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I think at this point it would be prudent to post a couple of pics.
One general engine bay pic and then some of the coil, dist, and the inside of the dist with the cap removed and rotor removed. Some here are the visual type and can pick out an issue in a second. I looked through your gallery. So your no stranger to posting pics.
Good Luck. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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ok, will do.
Let me find my camera and I will get back to this.
Thanks! |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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alright, her are some pics.
a few are a little bit blurry because I tried to get a "super close up" to show everybody.
THE PIC WITH THE PENCIL IS POINTING TO THE COPPER WIRE INSIDE THE DISTRIBUTOR....WHICH IS ONLY HELD ON BY 1 THREAD OF THE COPPER!! THAT DOES NOT SEEM RIGHT TO ME....IS IT?
please let me know if there are any wires I need to switch/move.
Thanks again for all of the help! |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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79bugman wrote: |
I don't think I have a electric points module because I don't know what that is...lol
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From your pic it is clear you have mechanical points. Your points are probably not Bosch points otherwise the wire would have been green instead of black.
That braided wire is the ground wire for the plate that the points mount to. It needs to have a good connection to the body of the distributor for the points to work. If necessary solder or crimp the wire so it has a solid connection. Right now I see this as your biggest issue.
79bugman wrote: |
I checked all wires and this is what I found...
#15 single black wire W/inline fuse goes to front of transmission. |
Great! This is what I expected.
79bugman wrote: |
#15 single green wire goes to cutoff solenoid then goes to choke. (i think you called this a daisy chain)
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Good. From your pics it looks like the PO replaced the stock black wire with a homemade green one. Note, the yellow crimp on terminal used for the choke coil is for larger gauge wires (12-10awg) and there is the risk it will slip off the end of the smaller wire. When it does and it touches ground it will melt your ignition wire. This circuit is not protected by a fuse.
79bugman wrote: |
#15 double black wire goes inside a wiring harness and into the rear of the car on driver side under rear seat. THIS IS WEIRD....FOLLOW ME...one of the wires goes to nothing! I have this capped off with a wire nut...HUH, why is that??? the other wire I assume is going to S12. I did not take my fuse panel out to verify this, but it is a good guess. |
Ok, so one of these two black wires is the source of the 12v that powers the ignition coil.
The extra black wire under the rear seat may be the wire that powered the fuel injection system. It is no longer needed. I'm surprised it was left uncapped. It could have started a fire!
79bugman wrote: |
I checked the following....
Battery Voltage = 12.93V.
Voltage at the #15 terminal of the ignition coil with the ignition ON =11.93V |
This is a whole volt lost between the battery and the ignition coil. That is a lot. You may want to spend some time with a wire brush cleaning all the connections from the battery, to the fuse box, to the ignition switch, to the fuse box and to the ignition coil. Do the same for the #50 starter wire.
79bugman wrote: |
Voltage when you turn the key to START = begins around 11V. when I hold the key in the "Start" position the Voltage steadily drops to around 9.93V until I let the key go. Once I let the key go, I hear a "click" (I think it is coming from the starter.) |
This is bad. Below 10v the ignition coil stops working consistently. The coil may not even fire. 9.93 is almost a 25% loss of voltage from what the battery starts with. This translates to lower spark voltage at the ignition coil. At some point around 9-10v the coil will no longer generate enough voltage to jump the gap at the spark plugs.
79bugman wrote: |
FOLLOW ME HERE..... I also checked the #1 side and everything I stated above is the same for all 3 #1 terminals with Ignition On and in Start...IS THIS CORRECT? I thought #1 was negative. |
Nothing wrong here. The #1 terminal is the negative side of the ignition coil but just like an bulb which has a positive and negative side, if you measure voltage at the + wire of the bulb while it is lit, you will also measure nearly the same voltage at the negative wire of the bulb. It makes more sense if you add a second bulb in line (serial) along the negative wire. The wire connecting bulb1 to bulb2 is on the negative side of bulb1 but on the positive side of bulb2. As long as there is current flowing through the bubs you will measure voltage anywhere along the path.
79bugman wrote: |
as for the Black/red #50 wire and checking for 12V....I located this wire but I did not do your test because I don't want to mess anything up due to the following....
The Black/red wire (i believe) is hooked directly to the starter from the ignition switch. I did not take the ignition apart verify, but I am pretty sure I am correct on this one. My wiring diagram shows 2 black/red wires but I believe since I no longer have fuel injection, the second black/red was eliminated that would go to the electronic control unit (not sure of this statement) (i'm guessing) |
Below the rear seat there should be a connector for the red/black wires. It is located just before the wire exits the cabin and heads to the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid. This is where there is a second (small gauge) red/black wire. You are correct, this smaller wire was for the fuel injection. I believe it would signal to the fuel injection controller that the engine was cranking so the fuel injection could add more fuel. As long as this smaller red/black wire is no longer used and not touching ground, you can ignore it. Test the voltage at this connector below the rear seat. If the voltage is dropping as much as you say, I doubt there is enough voltage WHILE The starter is trying to crank for it to activate the solenoid. Ideally, you want no less than 12v on this #50 while trying to crank the engine. This is where the hard start relay come in. It taps power directly from the battery terminal to power the solenoid. Disconnect the wire that is exiting the rear of the pan and touch it to the battery post (+). This gives the starter solenoid direct battery voltage and should crank the engine.
The problem here is either a weak battery, or old wires that have so much resistance that the voltage from the battery to the ignition and back to the starter has lost so much voltage that it can no longer energize the starter solenoid. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Thank you ashman for the response
It seems that all wires are hooked up correctly, so I will leave them alone.
For the last 45 minutes I have attempted to solder the copper wire to the plate inside the distributor and have had ZERO success.
I researched the internet to try and find a new copper wire to buy (which would be easier at this point that continueing to waste my life away soldering) and can't see to find the part.
I found points for sale, but no copper wire.
any ideas where I could look to purchase new parts for distributor.
the distributor has "050" stamped on the side with a bunch of other #'s I cant read because of where they are.
thanks |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Give this thread a read...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457134
You can replace the braided wire with copper "desoldering braid" as a conductor. There's a pic in the thread above. There is no need to use braided wire. You could use a good insulated wire as long as you can get it soldered in place. The only risk is the temp inside the distributor may get hot enough that the insulation could melt, but since the insulation on the points wire seems to do okay,you should be fine. The wire you use needs to be at least as thick as the points wire as this is the path the points will ground thru.
It is difficult if you are trying to solder the braided wire to the nut in the distributor if you are doing it while in the distributor. The body of the distributor will act like a giant heat sink and you will not be able to get the nut hot enough. You may have better luck removing the nut and soldering it separated from the body of the distributor. The thread above has a few other suggestions. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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thanks again, i will read the thread and get back to everybody!! |
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zoobyshoe Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2014 Posts: 461 Location: San Diego, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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ashman40 wrote: |
From your pic it is clear you have mechanical points. Your points are probably not Bosch points otherwise the wire would have been green instead of black. |
I just bought a set of Bosch points from Napa Auto Parts, and they have a black wire. It says "Made in Brazil" on the box, for whatever that's worth. These are spares, I haven't run them yet. My good, reliable points that say "Made in USA" (but nothing else) on them have a black wire. I think they must be 50 years old.
I also got a Napa Echlin condenser from Napa and it, too, has a black wire, which struck me as unusual. My good, reliable condenser, which has "Made in Germany" stamped on it (and nothing else) has a green wire, and my bad, unreliable condenser from Autozone, that failed after two months, also had a green wire. |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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zoobyshoe wrote: |
I just bought a set of Bosch points from Napa Auto Parts, and they have a black wire.
My good, reliable points that say "Made in USA" (but nothing else) on them have a black wire.
I also got a Napa Echlin condenser from Napa and it, too, has a black wire, |
Awe nuts!
I guess I have to stop assuming the green wire is the points wire. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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79bugman Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2010 Posts: 279 Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Wiring to coil |
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Alright, so I finally had time to get back out to work on car.
I "think" I fixed the copper wire problem with no soldering and just using what I have in the garage, but I am not sure.
see attached pics. this is what I did...
I took some old wires, stripped them to get only the copper and wound them real tight. I then attached a connector to the wire at one end and placed in between the outside part of the distributor and the inside part of the distributor (not sure what the technical names of these parts are)
I then wound the original copper wire that I left attached to the distributor because the original connection was perfect to my homemade wire. to me, it seems to have a good connection.
NOW my problem..........
still NOTHING!!
all fuses are 100%
I have 12.53V at the battery.
I have 12V to all wires on the coil.
I have 12V at the starter from the wire that comes directly from the battery. there is another wire attached to the starter (red/black) that goes thru the drivers side floor panel which has 0.00V.
turn key to ON and nothing!
thru key to start and nothing!
I figured once I get it to at least attempt to start I can check spark, etc...
any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all that have posted so far! |
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