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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Been questions lately about cooling fans so I dug a few out just to illustrate how they changed through the years. What you'll see is as the engines increased in size so did the CFMs of the fan. The factory also addressed this by allowing more cooling air into the engine compartment in a number of ways. So then cars have been modified over the years by people that do not understand the design and or think they know better than the engineers that spent countless hours and millions of dollars to perfect the design. Then you have a segment of folks that should not have a wrench in their hand. You know what I'm talking about, there are many threads here that witness the absolute hackery of previous owners attempts to patch things up.
Problems also arise when you install a larger engine in an early car which does not allow for the extra cooling or they've bumped up the displacement of a 1300,1500 to 1600 and larger. So just look at the photos they speak for themselves and if you think you know better than the engineers by all means do your own thing. From left to right we have early 1200 with the far right being the widest fan 71 and up doghouse.
The oldest ones on the left have those holes as a means of cooling the generator. The newer models have a different backing plate which faces down to the extract the heat. It's possible to install that wrong and you find that too. Good luck trust in the engineering not some nameless faceless Internet hack giving you advice. Don't believe me either read the manuals. |
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Mr.Duncan Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012 Posts: 3542 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Solid post.
This should be a sticky. _________________ (Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
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1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Here's an example of Vw factory cooling this deck lid had the thermostatically controlled door to open for added cooling. The tennis ball trick works too, use it
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Mr.Duncan Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012 Posts: 3542 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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I use the tennis ball in the summer time here in Texas anytime its 85F + out.
Mainly since I like keeping my 71' two slot deck lid, but we all know that 4 slot 72-79' deck lid lets the fan suck more air in much easier. _________________ (Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
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1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10406 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Please explain to me how, if I have a single port 1600 running hot, installing a doghouse fan shroud fixes the PROBLEM.
Not the SYMPTOM, the PROBLEM.
Could have sworn that even in 1970 when VW was using the 1600 single port (you know the exact same engine I have) they still weren't using a doghouse shroud. Not until 71 when they went to a dual port.
The tennis ball trick didn't help me. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Mr.Duncan Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012 Posts: 3542 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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sb001 wrote: |
Please explain to me how, if I have a single port 1600 running hot, installing a doghouse fan shroud fixes the PROBLEM.
Not the SYMPTOM, the PROBLEM.
Could have sworn that even in 1970 when VW was using the 1600 single port (you know the exact same engine I have) they still weren't using a doghouse shroud. Not until 71 when they went to a dual port.
The tennis ball trick didn't help me. |
Steve,
Zundfolge1432's post was not directed at you, or about your cooling issues.
He is simply showing the differences in fan designs, and reasons for them.
VW was in the design process of the doghouse fan shroud some years before it was released in 71' due to the #3 exhaust valve failing early in prior engines that used oil coolers inside the shroud (thus reason for the off-set oil cooler the dog-house uses.)
They used a bigger fan since the motors did increase in CC size, and due to emissions becoming more of an issue in the 70's the motors ran a little hotter. _________________ (Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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iowegian Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 9829 Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Mr.Duncan wrote: |
sb001 wrote: |
Please explain to me how, if I have a single port 1600 running hot, installing a doghouse fan shroud fixes the PROBLEM.
Not the SYMPTOM, the PROBLEM.
Could have sworn that even in 1970 when VW was using the 1600 single port (you know the exact same engine I have) they still weren't using a doghouse shroud. Not until 71 when they went to a dual port.
The tennis ball trick didn't help me. |
Steve,
Zundfolge1432's post was not directed at you, or about your cooling issues.
He is simply showing the differences in fan designs, and reasons for them.
VW was in the design process of the doghouse fan shroud some years before it was released in 71' due to the #3 exhaust valve failing early in prior engines that used oil coolers inside the shroud (thus reason for the off-set oil cooler the dog-house uses.)
They used a bigger fan since the motors did increase in CC size, and due to emissions becoming more of an issue in the 70's the motors ran a little hotter. |
Does sb001 have cooling problems? I hadn't heard that. |
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Mr.Duncan Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012 Posts: 3542 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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iowegian wrote: |
Does sb001 have cooling problems? I hadn't heard that. |
_________________ (Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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The pics only show the evolution of the fan and what the factory did to control heat. Without admitting a problem VW knew they had issues and this is evidenced by the continuous improvement of the design, they called progressive refinements. The other well known issue of burned or worse dropped number 3 exhaust is also answered by progressive refinement. It's just info to be aware of that's all. |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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I'll just throw a bit of outside info in here as its relevant but not widely known as in the North American market from 71 the only upright type1 engine you guys got was 1600 dual port.
In other markets like here in Oz and Europe Beetles were also sold in the 70s with 1200 and 1300 engines.
VW never made dual port engines with the old single port style internal style oil cooler, the heads just ran too hot, so the 70s 1300dp engines also ran the same wider fan and doghouse oil cooler as 1600dp
However, the 1200s sold right up to the mid 80s were single port and still retained the old narraw fan and internal oil cooler.
So if you ever get someones frankenstein engine that has DP heads with an internal single port style oil cooler, don't expect a long life from it. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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concepts12 Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2009 Posts: 86 Location: CT
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Hey Zundfolge1432
Thanks for the pictures of the fans.
Just you make it clear Are you saying from left to right you have a 1200, 1300, 1500, 1600cc fans |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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I've slept since then but I think from left to right its 36hp, 40hp, 1500, then dual port. I like the dual port fan and the matching shroud w/oil cooler etc. given a choice I'll take 75 and up fan shrouds with the directional or throttle ring on the back, I'll use this on a single port as well. I like stock but am not against mixing the various years to make a "better" cooling engine when I can.
Maybe this is a form of progressive refinement? |
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Frodge Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2006 Posts: 1991 Location: Dump
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Great post! Now if someone could further the discussion of how the different tins keep the engine cool. |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11740 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Steve, perhaps the tennis-ball trick didn't help you because your smaller fan could only provide so many cubic feet of air, regardless of the amount of air it has available. Also, the offset oil cooler in the doghouse provides a separate cooling system and hot air exhaust. Moving the oil cooler into its own air flow arrangement, also eliminated the pre-heated air going to number three cylinder. Nothing wrong with that.
Look at modern home air-conditioner systems. In particular, the condenser unit on the outside of your house. The fans and cooling-coils on those are far larger than, say the ones from the 1980's. However, the larger fans on the modern units use about the same amount of electricity as the old, smaller units--but they are far more efficient at removing heat from the cooling coils.
In other words, sometimes bigger is better. In this case, a bigger fan provides more cooling air, thus reducing heat more efficiently.
On a 1600 motor that is larger, more heat is produced than smaller engines. More heat requires a better--larger, more efficient--fan to dissipate the larger amount of heat generated. The addition of an off-set oil cooler was just a bit of genius added to the mix.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Here's a pic shows difference between the newer 75 and up left side pic and the 74 and down shroud on the right. The one on the left has the throttle ring and another hose attachment. The second photo show the provision for the hose,but no hose. More progressive refinement. They are blasted and primed with self etching primer awaiting a top coat of rustoleum semi gloss black.
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Here's another fan shroud and its 71-73 because it doesn't have the provision for the hose.
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9754 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Here's a pic shows difference between the newer 75 and up left side pic and the 74 and down shroud on the right. The one on the left has the throttle ring and another hose attachment. The second photo show the provision for the hose,but no hose. More progressive refinement. They are blasted and primed with self etching primer awaiting a top coat of rustoleum semi gloss black.
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Ok, just for the learning. What is the purpose of the hose and what does it attach to in the engine compartment? Mine is the older doghouse w/out the hose. But curious minds want to know.
Have a great weekend.
EDIT: The ring (some call it a venturi ring). What is the advantage of it? How does it work? Again just looking for a little education here. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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goober Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2003 Posts: 1183
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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On the doghouse fan housing, part of the fans output air goes over the oil cooler and out of the engine compartment.
Does anyone know what percentage or cfm of the doghouse fans output is diverted over the oil cooler? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76897 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Here's an example of Vw factory cooling this deck lid had the thermostatically controlled door to open for added cooling. The tennis ball trick works too, use it
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_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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JKLNHYD Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Pasadena, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling fan evolution 1200 through 1600 late. |
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67rustavenger wrote: |
Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Here's a pic shows difference between the newer 75 and up left side pic and the 74 and down shroud on the right. The one on the left has the throttle ring and another hose attachment. The second photo show the provision for the hose,but no hose. More progressive refinement. They are blasted and primed with self etching primer awaiting a top coat of rustoleum semi gloss black.
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Ok, just for the learning. What is the purpose of the hose and what does it attach to in the engine compartment? Mine is the older doghouse w/out the hose. But curious minds want to know.
Have a great weekend.
EDIT: The ring (some call it a venturi ring). What is the advantage of it? How does it work? Again just looking for a little education here. |
Caught my curiosity too, did a quick search...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=586522
ETA: Maybe this, along with too small a fan, is the reason sb001's engine is running hot. _________________ Jon
1971 1776 |
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