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Ecotec Street Rail Build
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pallen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Ecotec Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Found me a new project, I'm not completely new to VWs, I got my feet wet building a fiberglass buggy that I payed way to much for, spent way to much money and time but it came out pretty cool....

That build here > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Now onto the rail...

Shes real pretty....

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It needs a lot but I think it has some good potential and it has a title.

-IRS rear, link pin front with adjusters

I'm not 100% on a game plan yet but here is a little of what it will get..

-Will be fully street legal and tagged
-Suspension seats (I’m done with fiberglass)
-Hydraulic pedals, (dual master, will be keeping front brakes)
-Will need a built trans (could use some recommendations here)
-Power train will either be my built 2109 (build here > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=551465&highlight=) or I’ve really been entertaining the idea of an ecotec.
-and Im sure a lot more

First thing I will be tackling is some frame repair. For some reason somebody decided to weld the front beam on, and did it very poorly…

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The plan is to convert back to clamp unless theres a better/ stronger way I will be using these…
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Next area that will need to be addressed is the rear frame horns, they are rotted and have been plated over so they need to go…

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I know Berrien makes a rear frame horn section but I need to research more to see if that’s the best way considering I will be going to most likely a bus trans , any input?

I’m new to rails so I welcome any comments, I really don’t like doing things twice! Also, if anyone recognizes the make of the frame let me know!
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270


Last edited by pallen on Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Rail Build Reply with quote

I only bring this up because I was punted off the road by a drunk in a ram4x4. That rear engine cage Looks like it may barely be better than no cage at all depending on where it goes if it gets hit and breaks loose, and I don't think that would take much to do that. Sorry for the doom and gloom.
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pallen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Rail Build Reply with quote

Started tearing down...

The straps were holding the trans down as the nose cone is broke...

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The rear frame rails ripped off trying to remove the nuts!

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Little rust back there..

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I also messed with the adjusters... makes me think street rail...

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And that all I did tonight...

I got rear frame horn rails ordered as well as clamps for the front beam.

I also researched a lot on ecotecs today and I'm pretty sure I'm going to do a 2.4 LE5. I found one local for 300 with 80k miles, it's also a 2006 so it has forged rods... may pick that up soon. Only issue is it dose not come with a harness.
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270
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pallen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rail Build Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
I only bring this up because I was punted off the road by a drunk in a ram4x4. That rear engine cage Looks like it may barely be better than no cage at all depending on where it goes if it gets hit and breaks loose, and I don't think that would take much to do that. Sorry for the doom and gloom.


Oh your right, I noticed this as well. I will be making solid mounts of some sort so it can actually take a load path.
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270
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Kizbo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

I love the stance you've given the rail...looks cool. Keep up the good work!
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Q13931152
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Looks like a nice start.

With the amount of rust you had in the engine mount you really should check the rest of the tubing (including the rusty front beam ) very closely and replace as needed . It'd be a shame to fix it all up only to find that it's rotting away from the inside out.
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pallen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Q13931152 wrote:
Looks like a nice start.

With the amount of rust you had in the engine mount you really should check the rest of the tubing (including the rusty front beam ) very closely and replace as needed . It'd be a shame to fix it all up only to find that it's rotting away from the inside out.


Right, might biggest concern is where they welded the floor pan on. I'm going to be removing it tomorrow and will get a good look at the frame.

So I messed with the front beam tonight. The person who installed the adjusters indexed them wrong or installed them wrong, they were at the lowest setting and the suspension was maxed out to the bumps. So I tore it down and re indexed them, I now have adjustment up and down. I'm going to run drop spindles then adjust until I still have decent steering geometry but I think this will be close height...

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Also pulled the front drums off, everything needs rebuilt. I was thinking of just grabbing some drop spindles but I might as well go straight to disk break with a drop kit...

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SO then moved onto the rear for more tear down. The passenger pivot bolt sleeve/ nut was broke so I had to saw saw it out... will be needing new pivot boxes...

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Tomorrow I'm cutting the floor pan so I can make sure the lower rails are solid.
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270
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pallen
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Got the floor pan out.. Rail looks pretty good, some pitting but nothing to serious.

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Then I moved onto the front beam. Got it cut off and grinded the beam smooth.

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So next task was reinstalling clamps. I made a simple jig to hold the beam in place. I set it at 0 degree caster to set the lowers in.

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I measured a bunch and burned in the lowers. Then I tilted the beam back to 5 degrees and found the uppers were going to be a pain. Because I had to cut off the original clamps it moved the beam back making the uppers come in at not a sharp enough angle. So I had to cope some crazy piece to fit. I also had to extend the uppers so I sleeved them. Ill let the pictures talk...

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Back to clamps!

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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270
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pallen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

With the front solid I moved to the rear. Cut off the rusted out frame horns.

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Nice and clean

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And mocked up these from appletreeautomotive, pretty nice pieces for $100.

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Anybody have any advice on how to "set these" in? Should the flat lower part be level to my frame rails or what...

And with 3 days of solid grinding and welding my shop was a mess so I cleaned it out and reorganized. Got the pair out in the sun!

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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Others could probably chime in on this, but I happen to have rebuilt two different torsion housings with tubular horns, side by side with having access to two good IRS rear torsions with straight stock horns, and your guess was right. I measured and checked a lot in a lot of different ways.

The flat bottoms of the tubular frame horns should be about parallel to the lower chassis tubes to put it back like stock. I even welded a plate to my fuel tank crossbar down to a scrap trans mount to use as reference and cut off later, and both times it came out to: "lower parts of tubular frame horns should be parallel to chassis tubes."

I believe this is the perspective you're after. Everything lined up perfectly on mine, and then I had to do it again with a totally new torsion housing in another frame and it worked the same.
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Done like that, the bump stops on the spring plate pockets limit the angular travel evenly for the CV joints and everything works out. Since I have Porsche 944 CVs, I evenly ground the upper and lower stops and all the angular travel was very easy to get without having to grind out excessive amounts of just the lower or just the upper stop.
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B Ramsey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

nice work!
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pallen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

jimmyhoffa wrote:
Others could probably chime in on this, but I happen to have rebuilt two different torsion housings with tubular horns, side by side with having access to two good IRS rear torsions with straight stock horns, and your guess was right. I measured and checked a lot in a lot of different ways.

The flat bottoms of the tubular frame horns should be about parallel to the lower chassis tubes to put it back like stock. I even welded a plate to my fuel tank crossbar down to a scrap trans mount to use as reference and cut off later, and both times it came out to: "lower parts of tubular frame horns should be parallel to chassis tubes."

I believe this is the perspective you're after. Everything lined up perfectly on mine, and then I had to do it again with a totally new torsion housing in another frame and it worked the same.

Done like that, the bump stops on the spring plate pockets limit the angular travel evenly for the CV joints and everything works out. Since I have Porsche 944 CVs, I evenly ground the upper and lower stops and all the angular travel was very easy to get without having to grind out excessive amounts of just the lower or just the upper stop.


Thanks for the info. I have been searching like crazy and haven't been able to come up with any details on installing them, helps a lot!
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

Ecotec Street Rail Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8146270#8146270
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pallen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Well lots of parts have been ordered for needed work...

Rebuilt one of the trailing arms, bearings were completely destroyed.

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Got a replacement nose cone to replace the broken one I have.

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I also picked up some .090 aluminum for my floors, should have some weld on tabs tomorrow so I can get that done.

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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

After you put in the new yokes, add a front trans strap to prevent breaking the nose cone again.

It's necessary for dirt. But also for aggressive driving on pavement.
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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pallen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

dustymojave wrote:
After you put in the new yokes, add a front trans strap to prevent breaking the nose cone again.

It's necessary for dirt. But also for aggressive driving on pavement.


I do have a front strap I didn't use on my FG buggy laying around. I will be running CB Rhino mounts, a mid mount under brace and a traction bar setup of some sort...

Got the floor cut and put in, I bought some bulk tabs off eBay, almost made them myself... very happy i didn't, these worked well.

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After lots of measuring I think I have the rear rails set in place. They are just tacked in for now, I want to have the pivot boxes in before welding anything solid.

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Added front bracing back in..

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Also got my pedals figured out, my FG buggy had retro Neal pedals installed but I converted back to VW pedals on that project so I had this setup leftover. They needed complete rebuild so I ordered up new Wilwood master cylinders, along with a CNC slave cylinder.

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I also planned mounting the FG seats that came with the rail but decided to go straight to the good stuff and will be ordering a pair of PRP roadsters tomorrow...

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pallen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Seats are ordered.... got all black tweed centers and vinyl backs, unfortunately it could take up to 4 weeks to get them.

Also ordered wheels that are also back ordered....

Did get this nice piece in today!

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pallen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Finally got some parts in.

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Spring plates didn't want to come out...

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Will need to figure out how to index these the same later...

I mocked up the pivot boxes and they don't fit that great, do these look right? They are crashing into the frame horns before I can tighten the jig plate bolts all the way, am I just going to have to start grinding on them?

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Thoughts?
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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Yeeeahhh I forgot to mention something. Suspension geometry trumps (almost) all, so weld those IRS pivot boxes on first, then snuggle the frame horns up near them. Don't let the frame horns decide your suspension geometry, I think you'll end up with some comical toe-in that you won't be able to adjust out.

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The other thing I did (besides obviously using the USA made IRS jig for the pivot boxes) was to use a big aluminum chunk as a sanding block and some medium grit paper to knock the face of the spring plate cap casting flat. The 4-bolt face the jig bolts to should be true and "averaged flat" so the jig can't rock on it and finds a solid home. Also, I ground the radius of the pivot boxes ever so slightly such that they floated about a human hair out from the torsion tube, that way I knew no extra material was pushing it away from where it wanted to be.
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pallen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

Well after lots of grinding and measuring I got the frame horns and pivot boxes set....

I braced the horns to try to keep them from moving when burning them in.

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Back on all fours, if you notice in the pics I mounted the arms swapped and upside down... so I can go low for street rail....lol

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I also found out the oe drum brakes from my swing axle buggy (fully rebuilt) fit right onto the IRS. This saves me some money because now I don't have to rebuild the brakes or buy adapter plates as my wheels will be wide 5, and when I went to the CB rear disk brakes on my buggy they sent spacers as well!

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Also made a slave cylinder mount.

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CB rhino mounts should be in tomorrow so trans and engine can go back in.
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Buggy Build > http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499786

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pallen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Street Rail Build Reply with quote

SO got the mounts in... and 1 step forward... 2 back...

Trans doesn't fit correctly, its too far from the front mount and tipped down to the front. Only way I see to fix this is to cut the front mount off and welded in back into position to match the rear mounts... am I missing something here?

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So big question here is if I cut off the mount, what is the vertical location it should be set at? Should the face of the trans bell housing be perpendicular to the lower frame rails like I put in in my picture??

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If I do that it moves the front trans mount bolt holes up approximately 1-3/4"...

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