Clutch freeplay adjustment

[tomfreo]

I checked the clutch freeplay at the pedal as part of routine service and measure 60mm (2.35") pushing on pedal with hand until resistance felt.

I know the freeplay's been like this for a couple of years at least. The clutch works fine, nevers grinds, releases fine. The last time I adjusted - to the upper end of the spec (about 1") the clutch wouldn't disengage with foot off pedal.

Question is, any idea why there'd be so much freeplay at the pedal and yet clutch works fine?
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[flyboy161]

Hey Tom. Free play should not be confused with resistance. Free play equates to the distance it takes for the throw out bearing to move until it touches the pressure plate. Then there is spring pressure that builds up slightly until you feel resistance in your pedal. That resistance is the springs pushing the levers over center in the pressure plate.

I've always felt is easier to feel that with my hand. The free play I mean. It is literally nothing happening until you feel a slight tick. That .75"- 1" of movement until you feel the TB touch the pressure plate equates to about 1/16" movement at the throw out bearing, that being because of the difference in the operating arms in play. Longer clutch pedal means longer distance.

So.... Adjust it to .75"- 1" free play which will be about 2.35" until you feel resistance.
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[Eric&Barb]

Even though you have a later engine the spec for clutch pedal free play is the same.
The below from the 1961 Owner's Manual:

If you are having a vague feel to the clutch adjustment, check that the clutch tube has not broken loose the welds. Had same problem with our 1963 SC and fixed it by welding the rear end of the tube back in place.
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[tomfreo]

Thanks guys for your help.

flyboy161 >

[flyboy161]

Think of it this way:
There should be a minute amount of slack in the cable. The throw out bearing should not be touching the pressure plate unless your foot is on the pedal. If you adjust it too tight the the TB is rotating on the pressure plate...always, and that's bad. It's like riding the clutch. Read the following from Bob Hayes, a German auto repair guy:

You’ve probably read in some manual for VW’s about how to adjust the clutch. It goes something like “Turn the nut on the end of the cable to achieve 10 or 20 millimeters of free movement (play) at the clutch pedal.” WRONG!!

The result you’re really trying to achieve is to obtain the smallest possible distance between the release bearing and the clutch pressure plate. When the engine is running, the pressure plate is turning. In a properly adjusted clutch, unless your foot is actually pushing down on the pedal, the release bearing is not supposed to be touching the rotating pressure plate and thus not turning. If the release bearing is touching the plate when your foot is not pushing down on the pedal, the release bearing is always turning whether the pedal is pushed down or not and the bearing wears out rather quickly. The release bearing is a permanently greased ball bearing and constant turning wears it out real fast.

This condition also has an effect on the engine in that if there is too much pressure from the bearing on the pressure plate all the time if the release bearing is pushing really hard on the plate due to improper adjustment (negative slack on the cable), it can actually wear the case where number one main bearing is and damage the case thrust surface and make for a lot of end play over time and possibly ruin the case. Also, pressure on the plate due to no gap between the bearing and the pressure plate can make the clutch slip. It’s like your foot’s pushing down on the pedal all the time. Too much play, and it’s hard to shift and gears may grind. In fact, a cable with a lotta NEGATIVE PLAY (real taught) will destroy THE TRANSMISSION, THE CLUTCH, THE ENGINE, THE CABLE, THE CLUTCH PEDAL, THE RELEASE BEARING, AND THE TUBE THE CLUTCH CABLE RIDES IN. YEAH, THAT’S RIGHT – EVERYTHING!! It takes a long time, but I’ve seen it happen, no BS.

So the result your trying to achieve when adjusting the clutch is really a minute amount of slack in the cable.

To test for this, all you need to do is reach up to the lever on the trans and pull it forward just like the clutch cable does when you push down on the pedal. If you can feel just a little tiny bit of movement, that’s perfect. This means there’s a tiny gap between the release bearing and the pressure plate. Realize – just a teensy bit of movement at the lever. That’s it. The play at the pedal – it’s what you end up with after doing the former.
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[Bruce]

[flyboy161]

Of course not, Bruce. You should believe what you wish
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The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[EverettB]

[wcfvw69]

Link


This video will at least provide a little info on what the free play looks like.. I didn't watch the whole thing, just attached it so you can see what "free play" at the pedal is..
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[flyboy161]

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and then promise to be a good sport about it all. Just hear me out. I deal with engineers all day, every day. These are the guys who write repair instructions for the 26 year old aircraft I work on. We have technical nest ructions that were written when these airplanes were brand new. But those instructions don't take into account the age of certain components. And that's where our engineers come into play. To figure out why certain things don't fit the cookie cutter mentality of the original repair manuals.

So, when were the Bentley manuals written? Hmm? When these cars were new. The engineers knew what the wear limits were and when things should be adjusted to bring them back into specs. They knew that the pressure plate should be mounted in a fixture and tested with a certain kilogram load placed on it and checked for squareness on the face. If it isn't right replace it. But what they could never factor in, back in 1966 is the fact that my pressure plate would last 52 years. I kid you not. Is it weaker than when it was new? You bet! Does it have a nice crisp friction point? Yes. But it is somewhere out there beyond 20mm. It's closer to the 60mm that Thom has. Does it shift well? Yes. Does it grind gears? No. Do I need to go buy a new one? No, not today. It's not broken. Does the throw out bearing travel approximately 10-20 mm before it contacts the face of the pressure plate? Yes, absolutely yes.

But what am I adjusting when I adjust free play? I am adjusting the distance before the throw out bearing actually contacts the pressure plate. And because of the weaker old springs on my pressure plate that is a lot harder to find than a newer clutch. It is felt, like a hair brushing on your skin.

So, we have a phrase in the airplane world that might allow this to make sense. "Fly-As-Is" is it. If a part doesn't pass one of the criteria given in the manual, but passes all the rest, I'll check with engineering and let them make the call, fly as is or remove and replace. I can run out and condemn my clutch tonight. I can tell my wife, I'm going to order a new clutch set. And when she asks why, I can't lie to her and say, because I can't figure out how to tell when the throw out bearing actually touches the pressure plate. Because I have the ability to figure things out that don't always fit the black and white instructions in the Bentley manual.

So, to all of you. If you don't get this, by all means, go buy a new clutch set. Ship me yours, I'll test them, rebuild them if needed and use them in my car, or sell them for scrap. You'll have your Bentley spec clutch that works and I'll have my, "It ain't broke, I'm not fixing it" softer clutch that works just as well as yours.

And Bruce, Bob Hayes is not German. He is the owner of Hays VW repair in Monterey, CA. Been doing this for 25 years. He actually has some great blogs about what misinformation. Look him up sometime.

http://haysvwrepair.com/
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[mukluk]

Gonna need an ETAR for that clutch, flyboy161.
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