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Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

jgerock wrote:
Very impressive thread! Bet you could rebuild the steering box that is in the BMW's. I'll bookmark this thread if/when I get another VW.

ZF brand 1974 gearbox. It had plastic/nylon bearings


Those bearing cages are rarely nylon. Sometimes.....but not too often....at least they should not be with sulphated oils.

Usually they are Delrin or glass filled Delrin....could be polyamide-imide.....a whole range of engineering plastics. Much stiffer, much more chemical resistant than nylon.........and actually superior in an application like a steering box.....to the metal caged bearings.

Let me explain.
In the type of ball bearing that is in these boxes.....its a "cone"type ball bearing. It is designed to work PRIMARILY in an axial fashion....in the direction of the axle or shaft. The balls are back loaded and enclosed by the race that is on the worm gear or shaft....and front loaded and enclosed by the race that pressed into the housing.

Because of this layout.....the ball bearings can NEVER escape. That is not the purpose of the cage. The cage is a ball spacer that keeps load evenly spaced and the worm shaft has a very limited amount of lateral load to impart on the balls and the cage.

The benefit of the plastic cage over the metal cage.....is that it does not wear....like the metal cages.....so it does not get that loose feel or changes to ball wpacing that has been noticed about the ball bearings a few posts back.

Where you dont want to use a plastic ball spacer is any place a ball bearing has straight perpendicular load to the shaft....meaning like a regular ball bearing.....and where that shaft has significant side loading....and where the races do not nearly totally enclose the ball so it cannot escape. An example is you do not want to use a rear wheel ball bearing with a plastic spacer......but you can use a plastic spacer when you are using a modern double row canted ball bearing assembly like a front wheel drive car uses in its front hubs.

You can also use a plastic ball spacer in the big mainshaft ball bearing in some transmissions.

Wo do not be worried about your plastic spacers.....just replace them with quality parts by the same mfg. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Ray
Thanks for the detailed response.
here are some of the innards of the ZF box
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Cage in question
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used 80-90 weight gear lube in my steering box and now it leaks just a drip now and then. Where would I find that special lube mentioned above?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Google "Corn head grease". Look for a John Deere dealer on line or in your area. As noted earlier.....its called corn head grease because its usually used on the cutting heads of corn picker combines.

Thar being Said......while I applaud its use over gear oils in a lot of steering boxes...because its thixotropic enough to flow with very little working......its still....not exactly a gear oil.

When you Google this grease ...about five results down on a site called yesterdays tractors...you will find a note from a farmer who pumped his Ford tractor steering box full of this grease and in cold weather it did not not flow well enough to lubricate.

This is a high possibility. Its thixotropic. It shear thins when worked...rapidly. Its a different story on the corn picker heads that start rotating when you put it in drive. It may take some working when its really cold in a steering gearbox.

That being said.....I think the farmers problem in that thread.....is that he just pumped it jn until it came out the bleed hole. As I have found.....if you are working with these gearboxes or similar....whatever you use....corn head grease.....or thickened gear oil.....you need to fill it up AIR VOID FREE....with just a 1/2" diameter bubble for heat expansion.

These products are not water. They will not cavitate by splitting oxygen out of themselves. If its void free....as parts move through the grease/oil....the grease/oil flows around them filling any potential voids. You get full greasing and lubrication.

Correct application is about 9/10ths of the issue. There are about 20 listed John Deere tractor dealers in Virginia and numerous places on line that sell it. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I love this thread. I have a quick steering box question for the experts. My box is in overall good shape and relatively low mileage so it's not ready for a rebuild yet, but the large steering worm adjusting screw is leaking oil. (I believe that PO filled the box with gear oil when restoring the car.)

Unfortunately PO dealt with this by applying silicone sealant around the worm adjusting screw, but of course it still leaks. Not a lot, but enough to be a concern.

What I want to do is pull the box, get rid of the silicone, take off the top cover, get rid of the gear oil, fill the box up with corn head grease, place a new top cover gasket, then get everything adjusted properly and re-install.

My main question is what seals the worm adjusting screw? There does not appear to be any type of o-ring or oil seal there. Is there not supposed to be a seal? Is it only leaking because gear oil has been put in and something thicker like corn head grease will not seep out past the threads?

Are you guys putting some sort of non-hardening thread sealer on that screw during assembly?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
I love this thread. I have a quick steering box question for the experts. My box is in overall good shape and relatively low mileage so it's not ready for a rebuild yet, but the large steering worm adjusting screw is leaking oil. (I believe that PO filled the box with gear oil when restoring the car.)

Unfortunately PO dealt with this by applying silicone sealant around the worm adjusting screw, but of course it still leaks. Not a lot, but enough to be a concern.

What I want to do is pull the box, get rid of the silicone, take off the top cover, get rid of the gear oil, fill the box up with corn head grease, place a new top cover gasket, then get everything adjusted properly and re-install.

My main question is what seals the worm adjusting screw? There does not appear to be any type of o-ring or oil seal there. Is there not supposed to be a seal? Is it only leaking because gear oil has been put in and something thicker like corn head grease will not seep out past the threads?

Are you guys putting some sort of non-hardening thread sealer on that screw during assembly?


There's no 'seal' on the adjusting screw because it's at the top so it shouldn't be leaking. The early boxes were filled with gear oil (no rubber plugs). It could be as simple as being overfilled but it could also be a cue that something else is wrong internally.

Honestly, if you're going through the work to do half the rebuild, you should just do the whole thing. I think you'll find more than you expect, in terms of work, once the box is opened.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Sorry, I meant the large weird adjusting screw that takes the special tool, not the one in the top cover that is commonly adjusted for steering wheel play.

When the box is installed, the large screw is to the front of the car and pointing down along the same angle as the steering column. That's where mine is leaking.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Sorry, I meant the large weird adjusting scree that takes the special tool, not the one in the top cover that is commonly adjusted for steering wheel play.

When the box is installed, the large screw is to the front of the car and pointing down along the same angle as the steering column. That's where mine is leaking.


That makes more sense...but I still suggest that you rebuild the box completely. There's no seal there but it's a sign that something isn't right. I had a couple of steering boxes that I thought were fine that wound up needing several internal parts replaced after being torn down/evaluated. Steering and brakes are two areas I don't try to save time/money.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

The Bentley procedure says, " Install worm adjusting screw with sealing compound...". However, I've not taken one apart that had any evidence of thread sealant. The corn head grease, being "thixotropic", will generally stay in gel form down there at the worm adjusting screw. There is no shear happening there on the downside/backside of the lower bearing race. So there should be minimal opportunity for corn head grease to want to be in a flowing state there. But, I've gone ahead and used pipe thread sealant which you can find at any of your big box home centers. You don't need much, just a thin bead, in my opinion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Hey everybody,
So I was talking with Tim offline regarding my teardown of my old steering box and I made an observation regarding the removal of the small oil seal + bearing race + shim that caused some trouble early on in this thread in terms of getting the shim out without damaging it. He asked me to post it here.

I was tearing down my steering box with the Bentley manual next to me. When I got to the part about that shim, it said to use a VW special tool which was basically a 21.5mm drift to tap the entire mess, oil seal, bearing race, and shim, into the housing. So that's what I did. I didn't have the special tool, but I did have a 17mm Craftsman socket that was exactly the perfect OD to serve this purpose.

I put the flat end of the socket over the oil seal (the end that would normally attach to the ratchet) and gently tapped it in with a rubber mallet. After a few taps the whole assembly dropped into the housing without damage, including the shim (which apparently is the 2nd-thinnest one as it only has one notch in it).

I noted to Tim that he had removed the oil seal with a seal puller first, then attempted to drive out the bearing race and shim. Bentley says to just drive it all out together including the oil seal - and drive it out toward the inside of the housing. It worked for me, hopefully it will work for you. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

This was a great catch on Sean's part. The Bentley does indeed say, "Drive oil seal, shim and upper bearing out inwards with 21.5mm tube VW 423." In my earlier posts, I made too hard on myself (and others) by extracting the small oil seal outward, and separate, from the seal/shim/race combination.

Another example and lesson of how the Bentley is terse and to the point. They mean exactly and precisely what they say. And sometimes, at least on my part, it takes some study and thought to understand why they have phrased the statements the way they have.

Regarding VW tool 423: A couple weeks ago, I ordered an 11" piece of tube from online metals that is a good replacement for that tool.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15525...;top_cat=0

Mild steel A513 Type 5 DOM, 0.875" x 0.095" x 0.685"

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm going to cut this piece in half to make two of these tools. I'll post up a picture later this week of the tool in use.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Nice catch both of you!

This is also a potential reason to not reuse the ball bearing if driving out this stack requires more than just gentle tapping.

Even though the steering box I am going to reference is not a type 3 steering box.....it uses the same bearing part #.
I have found on Tearing down type 4 steering boxes that adjusting efforts from previous owners on tightening the outer worm screw to take up slack.....can actually put very fine dents in the bearing race. While the bearing does not have enough rotation speed for this damage to cause big wear issues and failure of the bearing.....it makes the whole asembly rough.

I do not know how much pressure or impact is required to dent the ball bearing races....but its something to keep an eye on if driving them out requires more force than you expect.

Inspect the ball bearing and race carefully for smoothness.....or replace them. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Worm Shaft Bearing Preload:

A couple pages back, Ray mentioned the use of a very nice torque wrench that measures down into the inch pound range.

But, what if you don't have that? The Bentley calls for the preload on the worm shaft bearings to be in the range of 1.3 to 2.1 inch lbs. That is not very much. The following is a suggestion:

The worm shaft flange happens to be 1 inch from "center of the shaft" to "center of the bolt hole":
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have a breaker bar that weighs right at 2 lbs.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the flange positioned at 3 o'oclock as shown in the picture, the preload should be backed off to just the point at which the weight will rotate the shaft.

(As always, comments and feedback welcome.)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

A "gravity torque wrench." Nice!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Clever! I think I have that exact same breaker bar too so I can easily replicate that method. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

This is exactly what I was looking for.

Who's going to package all the parts up for the rebuild kits and sell them?


OKType3Tim : How much do you charge for me to send you my steering gear box to rebuild?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

kawfee wrote:
This is exactly what I was looking for.

Who's going to package all the parts up for the rebuild kits and sell them?


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2013334
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

I'd just like to post a big THANKS to OkType3Tim! This thread is a great reference.

Placed my order yesterday and I'll definitely be giving a couple steering boxes a complete overhaul.

-Brent
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Teardown another TRW:

This topic has generated various discussions within other sections of TheSamba. Over in one of the beetle forums, Jim (Zundfolge1432) volunteered to purchase a brand new, from a reputable dealer, TRW steering box and have me go through the same assessment that got me started on all this last summer.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8363155&highlight=#8363155

So here goes:

Here is the new unit on the left, with one of my older units on the right. Both are branded TRW/Varga.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


However, there is a change of some sort, since the TRW part number has a new suffix: 10240007 is old.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


10240007S is new.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The new TRW was mounted on the fixture.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Initial observation is that the worm shaft seems to be in much better alignment than the unit that started this topic. (Not perfect, but much better.)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The first problem encountered was that the steering worm flange that I normally use would not tighten down on the worm shaft. I had to hunt around in my spare parts to find one that would work. From this, I take it that this worm shaft tolerance is on the small side, and my normal worm flange tolerance is on the large side. This is something to be aware of in any change out. I.E. make sure your worm flange is going to mate up correctly.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the worm flange mounted, the unit was very very tight. It took way to much force to turn the unit. With the drop arm on, the unit was cranked around to the "Middle" position. The TRW units do not (still) come with a marker ring to show where "Middle" is located. This unit did have a line inscribed on the worm shaft. The line is close, but not correct. (Factory line, or was this unit returned by a customer???)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I started taking some measurements to understand why the unit was to tight. The "no play" zone extended all the way from left-stop to right-stop. This is incorrect, as you know from previous posts. So the cover adjustment screw is way-way to tight. It was backed off a full half turn just to get some relief in the force it was taking to crank the unit over.

As a side note: When adjusting the Roller Shaft Adjustment Screw, I have found that the sweet spot between "it is just right" and "now it is to tight"---is a very small 5-10 degree turn of the adjustment screw. Sneak up on it bit by bit. Back out and then come at it again if you turn in to far.

The Roller Shaft Adjustment Screw was run through the basic adjustment process. From this it was determined that a thinner shim would be needed. However, upon complete disassembly, there was no shim present. More on this later.

Then the unit was opened up. The grease is better than what was in my original unit. Closer to the Cornhead Grease. But, still not "Pourable Grease". I.E. you can take the tip of a screwdriver, stir Cornhead Grease moderately and it will liquefy. The grease in this TRW would not liquefy.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then the preload on the worm shaft bearings was evaluated. This setting was even worse than the Roller Shaft Adjustment. So tight that the bearings could get into a "locked" condition where they created the effect of a "notch" in the races. But upon disassembly, no notch in the races, no damage to the bearing balls.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everything was cleaned up in the parts washer.
The machining of the saddle/bearing surface was better on this unit:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The bearings are of the same design as before:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The cover is of the same design with no bushing, just steel roller shaft on aluminum cover:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


An interesting "hiccup" in the cover bearing surface:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The roller shaft has an improvement. There is a small grease cup in the top of the Adjusment Screw pocket:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Roller Shaft Shim was smaller than any "VW standard" shim, and was a bit too loose:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The bearing surface of the Adjustment Screw was polished as described in previous posts; and the assembly put back together using a 2.00mm Roller Shaft Shim.

Next in the rebuild process is to install the worm shaft. As noted earlier, the worm shaft needed to move "up" or toward the driver, by using a thinner shim. But that isn't possible. Here is the thickness of an original FAG bearing race:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the thickness of the TRW bearing race:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


0.3 mm difference!

So, the race was chucked up in the lathe:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And based on the twiddling with the adjustment screw earlier, along with my rebuild experience; the race was shaved down to 9.95 mm. (I was shooting for 9.94 mm, but hey close enough to see if this was going to work out.)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Assembly and adjusment then proceeded as previously documented. With the shaved bearing race, I adjusted everything and found that I needed a shim of.........NONE. I couldn't believe it. I hit it dead on perfect!

Filled with Corn Head Grease
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Final (re)adjusment after everything is buttoned up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


BTW: Jim pointed me in the right direction to get a snap-on torque meter from eBay at a reasonable cost. From which, I verified that my "gravity based" torque meter is accurate.

So this unit now functions properly from an adjustment and torque perspective. The middle point is set and marked. Jim will install on a bug and we will then see how the machining on the housing works out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Conclusions/Opinions: True that Jim has a fully functioning, properly adjusted unit with new worm shaft, new roller shaft.
I still don't care for the bearings.
And I haven't found any machinists or metal experts that think a steel shaft riding in a poorly lubricated aluminum bearing surface is a good idea. I have considered the idea of milling out the aluminum cover, and inserting a bronze oilite bushing. But, that is more work, more cost.
I wouldn't install a TRW unit without going through the adjustment process. But that breaks the "yellow seal" so the warranty is out the window.

So, I throw this out for everyone else's Conclusions/Opinions/Comments.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

Was the new one made in Brazil? I just bought one and it looks closer to the box on the right (brown cardboard).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Steering Boxes: VW vs. TRW; VW Teardown & Rebuild Reply with quote

So quality is better but not up to O.E. also noted the roller shaft seemed to be made by the same vendor VW used and had that identifiying mark partially ground off. Hardness testing revealed it's up to O.E. specs. A person could use the roller shaft out of the TRW box,use the NOS German bearings,new shims as required and gasket along with a new bearing in the cover and matching original German box. Then you'd have a virtually new assembly kind of a roundabout way to get there but it would look and work right. The takeaway here? Aftermarket parts in some cases cannot compare with O.E. it's getting harder to maintain these cars with a dwindling supply of quality parts. Next week someone will ask if these cars were ever dependable. Very Happy
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