New wheel cylinders shoot fluid all over except for FTE brand

[danmancalif]

I have a 1967 Beetle sedan that needs wheel cylinders but I cant find FTE brand for it anywhere so far. When I tried anything else in the past, a front wheel shot brake fluid all over the inside of the hub and all over the floor the first time I pressed on the brake pedal. I figured out that the ends of the wheel cylinder were not extending evenly such that one end over-extended and the piston popped out, blowing the fluid all over. It did this 2 or 3 times on me and it was a mess. This didn't happen with FTE because those cylinders had a travel stop or travel limit inside on each end of the cylinder.

Anyone have any input on what, if anything, I might have overlooked to cause this to happen? I have been doing the brakes on that car for many decades and never had that trouble until the previous brake job.

Also, can anyone refer me to a source for FTE wheel cylinders? I have looked online extensively.

[KTPhil]

[danmancalif]

Thanks KTPhil,

Almost positive the shoes and cylinders were the proper parts and the idea of some sort of stops is in my memory but it was a long time ago and I do remember that the FTE cylinders were somehow different in that respect.

I will take one of the FTE cylinders apart to re-examine it when I take it off the car and will report back here on my findings.

I am going to give ATE cylinders a try until I either have a problem with them and/or find a source for FTEs.

Thanks for the input.

[KTPhil]

Yes, photos will help.

Also, a prior owner may have installed different brake parts (like from a later model, or even a Type 3), so the "book" application may not fit your car.

[EVfun]

I'm not sure why one end could overextend unless you pressed the brake pedal with the drum off. All wheel cylinders should blow if you press the brakes with the drum removed. Well, one other reason. The drum could be over the maximum diameter, but even that doesn't usually cause a noticeable problem until the brake pads are half way worn out (then a wheel cylinder blows.)

I have had good luck with Brazilian made Varga brake parts. They are/where an OEM supplier to VW. The parts usually cost about halfway between cheap Chinese made lowest price point parts and German replacement parts. The front Varga wheel cylinders have been in my '64 since '91, the duel circuit master cylinder since '00, and the rear wheel cylinders since '14 (the Bendix ones I put in back in '91 froze and started causing brake drag.)
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[danmancalif]

My wife is the original owner so I know that the brakes have never been modified.

I am going to have to research my situation thoroughly once I have the old cylinders off and apart. I have to admit that they have been on the car for 13 years so, given that length of time, maybe I am not remembering all of the details correctly.

What I do remember for sure is that aftermarket cylinders I tried 13 years ago blew fluid out of the end cap and I got into a big argument with the company I bought them from. The FTEs that I eventually got did not do that and I did nothing else differently.

[Cusser]

Ever take apart a wheel cylinder? They're very simple.

Like posted earlier: the metal housing is just a straight through cylinder, and one lightly hones that if rebuilding, not too much to these. So I'd be scratching my head why a certain brand didn't work, would suspect brake shoes being thin or wrong or way out of adjustment possibly allowing the rubber cups to move too much...
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[bowserb61]

If you don't mind paying shipping from the UK, vwheritage.com carries FTE/ATE cylinders and ships to the US. They're out of ATE front cylinders for 67s right now, but they have the rear ones in stock.

[danmancalif]

I just received Ate cylinders, made in Italy, for all 4 wheels at an unbelievable price from OEM Part Haus. Under $15 apiece and free shipping when order is $59 or more. Best deal I could find after lots or searching so check them out.

I got one of the old Fte cylinders off and apart and you are all correct in that there is no stop of any kind inside the cylinder. Just a smooth, straight through bore.

So, I don't know what I was thinking. Maybe I have been inhaling too much exhaust or something but I do remember that an aftermarket cylinder poured out fluid on the right front wheel but none of the Fte cylinders did.

Now I am wondering if just that one right front cylinder was somehow defective although I sure seem to remember that there was something different inside between the aftermarket ones and the Fte cylinders.

I will finish installing the front Ate cylinders today or tomorrow and report back on the results.

[KTPhil]

The only differences I have seen is that some have plastic parts backing up the cup, and some have metal (the cup expanders connected to the spring).

Maybe you are thinking of the snap ring holding the piston from going too far INTO the cylinder, rather than a feature holding it from going too far OUT? I think all have that feature.

Maybe the cylinder was assembled carelessly and the cup lip flipped over?

Hard to tell after all these years. But its good you found a deal on good parts. Let us know how it works out.

[andk5591]

Bad parts happen on occasion. Have had defective new wheel cylinders a couple times. Never experienced what you did. Just didnt work.
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[danmancalif]

KTPhil, I think you hit it on the snap ring idea and I thank you but these Fte cylinders have a ridge at the outward edge instead of a snap ring. After reading your comment I think I remember that the problem cylinders didn't have a ridge or a snap ring to keep the piston from going into the bore too far. Then somehow, either the brake fluid force wasn't equal in both directions or the spring didn't stretch correctly and one piston went in too far and the other end piston came out too far and allowed fluid to flow out. That may not be exactly what happened but it had to be related to that ridge and the lack of one on the aftermarket cylinders.

I will double check these Ate's to make sure they have a ridge or snap ring.

[modok]

Bingo, yes the snap ring or ridge IS necessary in some models, and I found some that didn't have it.
They don't have it because some models use the auto adjuster to hold the shoes out, so they are giving you the wrong part and saying it fits older models it shouldn't. Another thing is the size of the slot. Early brakes used the narrow slots to center the shoes, while later they went to wide slot and added four spots on the backing plate to locate the shoes. The narrow slot cylinders are mainly NLA. I found a simple fix, I just mig weld one bead along the end of the shoe on each side and grind the welds square and the right width to fit the bigger slot. Works GREAT, and much easier than the other fixes I tried. If you don't FIX this the brakes still work you will have a "low pedal".


If you are looking for type-3 rear cylinders try super beetle fronts, they are same size and do have the snap ring.

Brakes are simple, but sometimes they aren't.

[andk5591]

[danmancalif]

These new Ate cylinders do have a ridge stop on the pistons so I am ok on that.

But, one thing after another on this job, I can't get my 7mm box end wrench on the bleeder screw to loosen it for bleeding the brakes. It is too close to the brake line fitting, closer than the old FTE ones.

So, off to the store to get a 7mm open end wrench that will hopefully work.

[Spezialist]

Buying into brand loyalty is drinking koolaide cup and pitcher.
Their are so many agency's that regulate what can be sold for car on American roads no one who owned a foundry would produce parts that don't work, much less pass inspection.
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[danmancalif]

Want to bet Spezialist? If one thinks they can trust government agencies to police everything in this country so that there is no risk of part failure or even parts that don't work then I would direct you to recent news about the major air-bag fiasco and also about stories on worms in Costco salmon, worms in McDonalds burgers, etc. Even when they are doing a good job I don't think that they can be completely relied on.

I don't get the koolaide thing.

[Spezialist]

[danmancalif]

Back to issues of substance, ie, wheel cylinder issues.

I got a 7mm open end wrench and it worked fine to bleed the brakes. Finished up and adjusted the shoes and no leaks at all. So the Ate wheel cylinders are working just fine.

An Fte rep in the USA is contacting the German head office for me to see if they still make cylinders for the vintage of my 67 Beetle.

This whole episode just confirms my belief in the preferability of specific brands over others, especially way-off-brand aftermarket cylinders. I think both Ate and Fte have been OEM brands for Volkswagen and I will stick to those 2 in the future.



Thanks for all the input that helped think through this project.

[KTPhil]

Even with name brands, you have to check for quality. Several name brands have outsourced beyond Germany (Bosch, Meyle, others) and the quality can vary. Some will still say "Germany" on the box but the parts will not. It's worth checking here for feedback on specific parts, and recent feedback at that.