T4 guys only if you have built a T4 engine yourself

[williamM]

[SGKent]

[busdaddy]

[Abscate]

[orwell84]

That's a really hard question to answer. I ended up rebuilding my engine twice, the second time after somehow losing hardware down the intake runner and beating up the piston top. I ended up taking it all apart again and I'm glad I did. I found some issues with the heads unrelated to the dropped hardware. I had learned a lot rebuilding the first time and ended up going with HAM heads and new P & C's. I also double checked my machininists work which took a long time to learn and do accurately. There were so many incidentals other than learning from my mistakes along the way that make the time spent hard to estimate; sandblasting and welding all the tin, so much cleaning, replacing un-named broken widgets. Sourcing quality parts and finding a good machinist are huge what-if's and maybe a third of the whole battle. The last thing for me was fabbing a good linkage for my single Weber so that the throttle plate opened and closed reliably. I'm happy with it. I know exactly what's in it and I also feel much more confident and self sufficient in driving it. I think I would know when problems were developing and repair it accordingly. It wasn't about saving money for me.

To maybe better answer your question, I don't think I would ever build one for money and not for a stranger. Would build one for a friend, family member or help a neighbor. Even for an experienced mechanic with all the quality parts on hand, I would think that there would always be so much rusty, crusty, broken, missing and someone else's duct tape and bailing wire to untangle to accurately quote a time span on the whole mess.

[SGKent]

[Silverboot]

Let me preface this by saying that I have never built an engine, and I am in awe of you guys that can. I hope to be on that level one day.

What if a stranger came to you with one of these "turnkey" engines from a factory in hand, and it had never seen any use other than the dyno, and the customer said, "Go through this, and get it where you would be comfortable putting it in your bus." I have seen thread after thread of these factory engines shitting the bed 3-5k miles in, but they could be a legit engine for many miles if someone took the extra few weeks to make sure that the little things are done that an assembly line probably won't do.

By your estimate of $5k labor and $5k parts, this $4k jumping off point could potentially reduce some of the labor/parts sourcing.

Would this be a workable option for a stranger/customer?
_________________
79 FI CA Riviera
74 Smallframe Vespa

[busdaddy]

"Factory" where?, I doubt I'd do much to a real NOS German built engine aside from changing some seals and adding the few oiling and sealing mods that were implemented after production stopped.
A VW of Canada rebuild would get a little closer scrutiny but they did use good parts so likely it wouldn't need much.
A turn key unit from an aftermarket rebuilder may or may not require checking depending on where it was built and/or how long it had been sitting.
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[Silverboot]

[kooper271]

[airschooled]

[busdaddy]

Ahhh... so you mean current mass builders like GEX? I'd rather start with a running core, likely less stuff to throw out.

If it was an install for a customer it would depend on budget, timeline and warranty expectations. If you expect me to deal with any future issues it may develop it'll be expensive, if you just want to get back on the road and drive far away to where I'll never see it again and you understand the chances then I might not dig that deep.
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[skills@eurocarsplus]

interesting stuff.....

I think the warranty can get ugly though....

let's say you build it to the 9's, but you can only get Chinese mains. lets say after 800 miles it starts to have a knock.

you tear it ALL back apart to find the babbit cleaned off the bearings. now what? if that's all that's available then you're screwed.

doing an aircooled is like pulling the pin out of the grenade and telling the customer "here....don't let go"

I retract my 5-7K statement. I will charge zero and not do it. never lost a dime by saying no, but have gotten married to a project by saying yes....
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[busdaddy]

If I couldn't get good mains the project would stall until some were found, anything's out there if you shake the tree hard enough and are willing to buck up when you find it, the customer would have been warned about possible wait times and costs.

But I completely agree about the no option, lately I've been going that route more often than others. I don't build engines for the bucks, it's all about the challenge for me to make each one better than the last, if I charged for every minute I really invest in some builds people would be saying "but Jake only charges $X"
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[timvw7476]

you also walk into a labyrinth of install issues, tin proper, thermostat,
CR setting, fuel octane, oil weight(s) ignition timing specs. 1 goes wrong?boom
If you are building for the compleat idiot, it would be best to put a
Subaru in there. Just tell them first, so they know there's Asian power in there.
Or not.

[kooper271]

Out of curiosity does JR warranty his turn key engines?

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[kooper271]

[airschooled]

[Wasted youth]

I am starting to rebuild the 1700 in my 1973 bus. This is my first Type 4 build. And, like anything else like this the time and money outcome is chiefly determined not so much by experience as it is by being 'tooled up' and having what you need.

Said another way, if you have confirmed you have the aptitude, and are willing and able to follow directions, procedures and advice, then the biggest stumbling blocks would be production issues:

Will this be done on the patio with cheap tools and the dog getting in the way, or do you actually have a well-lit, undisturbed shop-style area with filtered, compressed air, all tools within easy reach and the ability to process the different paths apart from each other. Like, having a clean place to rebuild the FI or carburetor systems while you wait for the parts to come in with the case on the engine stand?

***Do you have a rapid and good way to sandblast the tin, or are you saddled with dicking around with a wire cup brush on a the end of a grinder? And when you paint that tin, will you rattle can it, or use a epoxy primer and decent single stage color coat with hardener... can you hear the labor difference?

***Can you dip the case or have it professionally cleaned quickly, or are you going to be screwing around with toothbrushes, etc.

***When you get ready to tap in those threaded plugs for the oil galleries, do you have a nice jig on a milling machine or good drill press for your case halves, or will you be trying to hand drill all those with the case strapped to a work bench?

To me, these are the differences in the cost outcome. How much is your time worth?

Also, I asked a similar build cost question this July, but from the consumer end:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658787&highlight=