Scat C25 - recommended springs

[Schwing]

I am having issues finding the correct springs. I am also getting flooded with too much advice and a bit overwhelmed. I have successfully built Type 1 motors, however I am learning that the Type 4 requires a lot more attention, and $$.

Originally I had planned to build a stock 1.7 but after learning about the cam being severely de-tuned I thought some small upgrades wouldn't be a bad idea. Now I am at a crossroads and not sure of the next logical step. I have already received some advise from some of you on here and I appreciate that, but I have not asked this specific question regarding springs.

My setup:
I have a 1972 1.7L VW case with Q stamped heads (which I believe were used for 914 and 411/412s.) I will be running stock dual Solex that were rebuilt by Volksbitz, as well as Vintage speed headers and Exhaust. Scat C25 cam, lifters. German rebuild kit and German main, cam, rod bearings.

Machine Shop is done cleaning the case and assembling my crank and rods. I originally purchased "HD" springs from aircooled.net which ended up not being HD due to measurements, measuring stock. Not complaining about aircooled.net, may have been a vendor mixup. Next I bought a set of Hi-Rev HD springs from SCAT which apparently are measuring inconsistently and my machine shop is concerned they will gouge the surface of the head.

My questions:
(While I appreciate my machine shop, I think his lack of type 4 experience is causing me undo headache. Everytime he calls its more questions then answers). I am also learning there is a lack of quality new Type 4 parts causing another level of frustration.

1. Do I actually need an HD spring with a C25 cam or would a new stock replacement be ok?
2. Should I run the Scat springs with shims or spacers to protect the head? Could this cause what is known as stacking or too much compression of the spring?

[jason]

What do you mean theyre not HD because of size? They should also be shimmed to your cam, there should be a spacer so they wont gouge the heads.

[VW 66 Doctor]

good luck

[raygreenwood]

[mark tucker]

springs dont ahve to rotate, usualy you do not want them to...thus the no slip shims with serations. the machine shop may need to be changed to somebody that knows whats going on. call john and get the right springs.deburr the springs as usual and use shim or seat under the spring. do you need hd I dont have a clue Im not driving it or building it.but you do need good springs set up properly and the keepers gaped properly.

[Schwing]

The springs were touching the boss and fitting very tight.

You can scratch this post because I have consulted Fat Performance and just purchased cam, lifters, springs, shims, and a rocker spacer kit.

I've made some poor choices with my build with regard to performance but I now feel confident on the reliability factor of my setup after talking to Greg at Fat.

Those guys are really knowledgeable, I just wish I was pointed to them sooner.

[raygreenwood]

[Schwing]

[raygreenwood]

[[email protected]]

Everyone has been using HD Type 1 springs on type 4s for almost 40 years, they work well. Same with Type 1 dual springs, same mod to cut the guide boss down.

If you got a HD spring from us which measured stock, it was a packaging error from the mfg. E-mail us to get it resolved.
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[Schwing]

Thanks John I appreciate you offering to help out. Again I didn't think it was anything aircooled.net did wrong, likely a vendor sending the wrong springs or mislabeled. According to my machine shop they appear to be stock springs but I am not claiming to be an expert here. I will send the springs and Scat cam I bought from you for a refund if thats ok (since I have decided to change direction here). I will email you for follow-up.

What I ended up doing after my machine shop told me they were not HD Springs was purchasing the hi-rev spring kit directly from SCAT. Those are the actual springs that were causing my machine shop grief with the spring coming in contact with the boss and his concern over them gouging the head, and also too much compression or "stacking" as he called it.

I was starting to get frustrated at the lack of info so I decided to call Webcam to see what springs they use with their cams. I spoke to a very knowledgeable rep who told me they get their springs from Greg at Fat Performance and that I should likely call him for some additional consultation.

While Greg wasn't excited about my choice to build a 1.7L, he would have preferred I build a 1.9L or 2.0L and I can understand that since he primarily does performance engines. This isn't really a performance engine at all, and thats fine for my needs. I was, however finally getting some advice on what Cam, Spring, Lifter combo will work great with what I am doing. So I bit the bullet and bought from them.

My machine shop is actually very talented and has been in business for over 50 years, working on all makes of vehicles. While his specific Type 4 experience is weak, he calls me and has me questioning everything. He is doing everything by the book since he is borrowing my Bentley, but what he lacks is the real world experience of building Type 4 motors and to me the hard stuff really comes into the top end of what choices you make with the head, the valvetrain, etc.

At this point he has already installed the new guides and valves and has cleaned the heads very well, and confirmed there are no dropped seats, cracks, etc. Once he has the right springs, I believe all he has to do is install them utilizing the stock keepers. I think they are Bugpack performance Type 1 HD Springs but honestly the brand doesn't matter to me as long as they work.

[raygreenwood]

[mark tucker]

many machine shops have been in bizness for many years. that dosent mean they know squat. sorry but thats a fact. Ive known many of them.I had a old friend that worked at one possiably his entire life.and when he built his boat motor I asked him what he sets it up like.....his reply wasent good.I told him it probably wasent going to work....he wasent happy and.....said I didnt know what I was talking abput as he had been doing this his hole life.....so he brought us the motor to install&breakin....it seezied about 1/4 mile out just as I had told him...... and then the shit hit the fan.... I explaned what he did rong on the entire engine without ever taking it appart. a week lator he came by our machine shop ( part of a performance marina) and appoligized... everything I had told him was effed up exzactly as I discribed it would be... he then called mercury racing and a few other's and then came buy to see me..he found out the hard way, just because you do something for a living dosent mean you know shit or can do it right.
Ive seen somuch stuff screwed up at "exspurt machine shops" it's sickening. Ive seen and heard somany exscuses from you effed it up to those parts just could not handle all that raw power you have now.
Your machine shop should of known the tight fit of the springs was nothing, just a guide boss cutter witch is a normal procedure on somany engines execpt for the mazda rotery. what else didnt they know?

[Schwing]

[vwinnovator]

[mark tucker]

the motor up fine and she will run. At this point he just needs to install these springs and we can part ways.......... it realy dosent take much for a motor to run. It isant the guy building , it isant the machines used, it isant the clean or dirty floor or the screatery answering the phones. there is no majick of any color. it's not just installing parts or paying the bill. there's a lot to it but in the end it's still pretty simple. good luck. I hope it works out for you.

[raygreenwood]