1640cc supercharged EFI

[lelef]

Hi this is the last upgrade of my 1302 cabriolet engine
When I restored the car I've done little improvements to the engine some little more cc a biggher oil sump ,electronic ignition , 80A alternator a weber carb kit.
It was quite good but an EFI works really better 1
With all the work to convert to EFI why not a supercharger?
an amr 500 is a good choice and it is cheap, with a custom made intake and without the standard fuel pump and alternator is quite easy do a good and also god looking setup .
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[lelef]

Aisin AMR 500
Microsquirt3 EFI
Fiat-Citroen VR crank position sensor
Bosch 340cc injectors (mini cooper s)
cbr 1000 05 coils
Bosch 0227 100 211 4 channell
GM 3bar MAP sensor
GM IAT sensor
GM CLT sensor
Wideband Lambda
Honda accord throttle body and TPS
K&N air filter for HD 1340 perfect for the Honda throttle body

[Howard 111]

I love the look of a supercharger on an ACVW. Nice job.
_________________
1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270

[mark tucker]

dam why didnt vw do that

[181´rn]

Hi

I also run an amr 500 on a 1915cc motor with efi. From your picture and the size of the pulleys you should be seeing around 15psi boost at full chat. I treid running a v-belt but that slipped at 8psi. There was enough slip to melt the belt. I am now running a toothed belt.
What is the nax boost you are seeing?
Where is your iat sensor mounted and what kind of temps are you seeing?

Alex[/img]

[lelef]

Hi Alex
I use a 13mm wide belt and the belt have 3/4 of circunference on the compressor pulley.
With a 9 mm wide V belt ,the same I've found on the engine slipping was around 7-8 psi ,with more tension of the belt something better but in 2 H the belt was broken.
Now with the 13 mm it is a little better ,I've read 13 psi max but the belt became hot and I think that it slips a little not at constant rpm but during acceleration.
So a toothed belt should be the best way.
I'm searcing a solution to use a toothed belt without change my timing wheel
and also I've no idea of the dimension needed for the load,I've never worked with toothed belt on cars before.

Air Intake Temperature is around 45 C with an external air temp of 27 C
But I've done only short runs
The sensor is just under the compressor

A problem that I've found is that at low rpm the charger works against the engine ,plus or mine under 900 rpm , I' removed for a wile the MAP tube and it runs better so a little bypass valve should work, I think to use a normally open 12v valve connected to the microsquirt fast idle wire , programmed to close at higher rpm, probably it should be used also to limit the overboost, if needed, but I've to try if it really works

[rubenski]

Hi,

Nice setup you got there!

I had a amr500 on a 1641 for a while to, now back to NA till i have EFI.

You can also try the scat serpentine belt kit, then you would only have to make a new pulley for the blower.
i have one made for the Micro-V belts (5-rib pattern)

do you have any more pics of your mounting bracket?
when I made mine, it had to be really strong because it torqued alot.

I'm currious about your IAT's when you take it for a longer drive.

Greetz from Belgium!

[lelef]

Hi,Rubenski,
Sorry, I,ve no detailed pictues, the intake, the mounting bracket and the tensioner bracket is one piece of welded pieces of steel to be strongher, I,ve used the fuel pump bolts and 2 cranckase bolts.
The scat serpentine should be a good choice, thank You.

[181´rn]

Hi,

Concerning the belt, you should ditch the v-belt. Change to a toothed belt or a multi rib as Ruben already mentioned. This way you can lower the belt tension and prolong the life of the dynamo and idler bearings. I prefer running to separate belts, the original for the dynamo and a pulley on the outside of the crank pulley for the supercharger. This way if the supercharger is acting up, you can just take the charger belt of and keep driving without the supercharger (but still have cooling)

From your IAT´s I am guessing this figure is from driving for a short period. All roots superchargers produce a LOT of heat. I have previously run an chargecooler after the charger to keep the temps in check but ultimately I went a different path. I use a fifth injector at the trottle body running it staged with the other 4 injectors. This was I can run some fuel thought the charger in order to help cool the air charger as well as increase efficiency. Wet lobes seal better and give a little increase in boost. This setup is a lot simpler and it works well. I also run E85 which helps even more with the temps. With the chargecooler, I measured the supercharger with the heatgun and saw that it was getting very hot at around 120-130C. Now with the extra injector I see around 70C cruising and the temperatures go actually down at full throttle when the 5th injector is spraying more fuel. My IAT sensor is placed on the left endcasting.
Are you running 4 injectors by the endcastings? If yes, you need to do something to control temps. You will have an issue on drives more than 10min at highway speeds. Chargecooler, extra injector before the charger or water injection can work.

I have also run a bypass valve but now I am running without it. I have found very little benefit from running it. At idle or low map, the rotors of the charger are spinning in vacuum. The bypass valve will allow to "freewheel" the charger allowing for wider throttle range before boost starts building as well as better fuel economy. If you are running a bypass, you better be running the charger dry to avoid pooling.
My guess is that the issues you are seeing are from where you are taking the map signal. You should be tapping not right after the charger. When you are so close to the output of the charger, the sensor is reading an unstable signal because of the rotors that are turning right next sensor creating a fluctuation in signal. If you have the sensor a bit further downstream, the signal you are reading is stable. My setup is idling like a champ and pulls strong from idle in any gear.

here are some pics:

this pic is with a ducati trottle body, I have now charged to a bmw tb from a motorcycle.

this is a pic with the intercooler

and a little video of the car in action:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCq2CPEYIGo

here can you see how staged injection works, testing without the charger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwS0IqNquM

Alex

[lelef]

Thank You Alex,
Yes , my MAP sensor is just under the charger and I'm just at the beginning of this work, short runs and a lot to learn !
The fifth injector at the trottle body is a great idea, I run microsquirt and I don't know if is possible to put more than 4 injectors.
2 belts is the easiest way , you use a 8m25mm belt for the compressor?

[181´rn]

Hi,

Running a belt with 8m pitch and 25mm width from what i remember. I got the pulleys from here but had to modify them.
http://www.kemotorsport.com
I had to mount flanges to the supercharger pulley in order to prevent the belt from derailling. I also machined the crank pulley so it fit on the outside of the regular crank pulley (do not use the crank pulley on its own, it will fail as it is machined wrong, works fine as an outside pulley though)...)
It is important that you have control on your fueling, timing as well as IAT´s. Detonations will kill your motor in a very short time.

I am pretty certain you can run up to 8 injectors with microsquirt. I run the 4 by the end castings on one channel and the 5th by the throttle body on the other channel. I run the 5th as the primary and the other 4 as the secondary. This was I can have all 5 firing at idle and startup for easy starting and decent idle quality. At part throttle I run more fuel from the 5th to cool things down and and full throttle I have all 5 firing. Last year I used a throttle body from a ducati with the injector over the throttle plate. With this setup I had to wait for the throttle to open quite a bit before I can start firing the 5th injector. This led to very high IAT´s at part throttle. Now I run a throttle body with the injector after the trottle plate so now I can have it firing from idle. This way you get a lot more cooling at part throttle:)
If you go with the fifth injector, I advise you to move the IAT sensor further downstream. You need to let the fuel evaporate a bit to evaporate a bit after the charger to get a more correct reading of the IAT.

here is where mine is mounted.

and here is where I take the map signal from

Good luck tuning and developing your setup. Go slow at the start and keep AFR, IAT´s and timing in control before you let her rip:)

[lelef]

Thank you
Everybody seems to have problems with the Kemotorsport kit for what I've read on the web, 8m25mm are easy and cheap to find but is needed some machining .
I will try to run microsquirt in your same way, I,ve a 30mm alluminium adapter plate betwin the throttle body and the compressor, should be enough place for the 5th injector, Yamaha R1 04 05 06 seems to have "long nose" injectctors should be usefull the extra lenght to be near the centre of the compressor intake

[181´rn]

Hi,

When I had the Ducati throttle body with the injector over the throttle plate, I looked at putting an injector in the adapter plate like you suggest. Mine is 2cm thick. I also looked at machining the throttle body in order to place an extra injector under the plate. Any place I tried gave a sharp angle with the injector in relation to the airflow. If you plan to drill the adapter plate you will end up spraying at 90 degree angle related to the air flow. You might have some issues with fuel wetting the walls which will lead to issues with drivability. You should aim at having the injector at a 45 degree angle in relation to the air flow.

Here is how the ducati throttle body looked. I loved the look of the stack with the injector sticking at the top but in the end it didn´t suit my purpose:(

I ended up using a throttle body from a bmw r1200 motorcycle bought on ebay with an injector and fuel rail arrangement. Came with a tps too:) The injector is towards the rear of the tb.

not quite as cool looking as the ducati one but a lot better for the application.

Perhaps a tb change might be easier in the end instead of using the tb you have now.

A bonus not messing with the adapter plate is that you can use it for another purpose:)

a nitrous setup! should give some additional cooling as well as a little kick in performance:)

Alex

[181´rn]

Here is a pick of the tb showing the location of the 5th injector

Alex

[lelef]

Thank you for all the good info.
I will start step by step with the mods, my engine is not for racing, it is for an everyday car, the bypass makes it run really better I'm doing it manually, I'm waiting to recive the valve to test the automatisation ,then if there is too much heat I can make a bigger pulley for the compressor, less boost = less heat an also less slipping problems for the belt , if is possible to found something good betwin some less horsepower and an easy setup it will be good for me but if slipping and heating remains a problem shurely I have to change the belt and add the 5th injector probably replacing also the throttle body

[rubenski]

Hi,

While surfing the www i found the injection kit from FItech.

Looks like a holley but is acctually using injectors.
Hard to find some revieuws on a acvw but worth looking into.

Place it in a draw trough config and blower heat is not an issue anymore.

Someone got more info about the fitech system?

[lelef]

Hi,
all the entry level efi kit for USA small and big block v8 are like this, mallory, edelbrok ecc all the efi kit are so and are like the old efi used by GM ,probably 4 barrell is too big for a beetle engine

[rubenski]

Not to hijack the TS's topic but wouldnt it be ideal for a supercharge setup?

You have efi AND tha advantage of the mixture going trough the blower (cooling)

But is there a possibility to do that without the distributor? Some kind of crank trigger system?

[VdanielW]

[lelef]

waiting the bypass valve I've added a fresh air intake