| Author |
Message |
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
 |
|
| KentPS wrote: |
PineTops: That would be ideal if the smog laws were changed to exempt pre-1980 vehicles! It will be interesting to see how far it gets thru the state legislature.
Thanks WY... That link and the links off that were helpful. They show what it looks like when the shit hits the fan. Going thru Bentley and Muir, it assumes everything is perfect and pristine.
BusDaddy... 99.44% certain I'm at TDC...
WilliamM: I had hoped to get it running to check and see what else needs work. And I've not given up yet. It could be I've overlooked something obvious. Still hoping to get it going, even though it won't be for the long term.
Work is getting in the way of my bus play time, so I'll have to look again later tonight. Maybe a next step is to put it back together and check compression? |
If that's your mark at 12 o'clock on the fan you are away off. You need to have the timing scale on the T4 motor for TDC.
Pick your poison;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?search...=titleonly
Notice the timing marks, TDC is at about 11 o'clock in the second picture
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636711&highlight=timing+scale
More bathroom reading....
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html
While you are there, you can rip off that smog pump pulley, besides all your California specific problems, it isn't hooked up to anything, not serving any function, nor holding any residual value. Halloween is in a month, make some trick or treater confusingly happy.
You will be amazed how much room it will seem to free up as well.
In your second picture, the indent in your distributor is for how the plastic dust cover aligns itself, not your timing mark. The timing mark looks like it may be another 90* clockwise, but I don't know the dual vac dizzy spells as well.
Judging by all that info, your valves are probably fine, you were just way off. Get a timing scale, torque the rockers back properly and then do valves and timing.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Aaaannd that .66% bites you in the ass 
You don't have a timing scale so there's no way to determine exact TDC, I can't see enough of your pulley but since it's still dirty I'm guessing you haven't found the notch on the inner edge of the pulley either? Painted marks on pulleys weren't put there by VW, they could have been added by a mechanic for valve adjustment, but that could also be the 180 degree mark for cylinders 2 & 4, you'll have to find the real mark to confirm. (Ratwell's broken today so I can't add the link)
And you should never trust and marks on the distributor unless you have personally installed the drive, #1 could be anywhere, only the wire that leads to that cylinder is the final answer on an unknown engine.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| busdaddy wrote: |
Aaaannd that .66% bites you in the ass
|
Must be the Canadian conversion rate.... .56% for us Yanks
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)
Last edited by aerosurfer on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
williamM
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
 that would be way better than a bad seat coming lose. You can find TDC by taking the valve covers off and rolling the motor over till (I believe) the rockers for #4 ar both moving at the same time (it's called the rock point.) When that happens- #1 is at top .
but get the timing scale any way as you need it for timing the running engine.
 Things are looking up.
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| williamM wrote: |
that would be way better than a bad seat coming lose. You can find TDC by taking the valve covers off and rolling the motor over till (I believe) the rockers for #4 ar both moving at the same time (it's called the rock point.) When that happens- #1 is at top .
but get the timing scale any way as you need it for timing the running engine.
Things are looking up. |
Close, it's #3 (LF), if the rockers on #3 are both moving as you move the crank like twiddling your fingers then #1 (RF) is really close to firing TDC.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KentABQ 
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Thank you all for your feedback. That makes perfect sense now. I'll work on it some more tonight.
The Bus Fever is now spreading into the engine bay. I'm starting to get into learning and working with it and getting dirty, with perpetual grease under the nails. 
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
        ---williamM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
williamM
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| busdaddy wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
that would be way better than a bad seat coming lose. You can find TDC by taking the valve covers off and rolling the motor over till (I believe) the rockers for #4 ar both moving at the same time (it's called the rock point.) When that happens- #1 is at top .
but get the timing scale any way as you need it for timing the running engine.
Things are looking up. |
Close, it's #3 (LF), if the rockers on #3 are both moving as you move the crank like twiddling your fingers then #1 (RF) is really close to firing TDC. |
Sally- is that the last of the box wine 
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
[quote="Tcash"]url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6617648#6617648]Distributor Finding TDC #1/ Installing Drive Gear and Dist.[/url]
FINDING TDC #1 COMPRESSION STROKE
Finding TDC (top dead center) on cylinder number one (#1) on the compression stroke. There is a couple of ways to do this.
1. Pull the #1 spark plug and plug the spark plug hole with your finger.
Turn the engine over clockwise until you feel pressure underneath your finger. Keep going until you line up the TDC mark with the split in the crankcase.
You are on TDC for #1 compression stroke. Move to Installing Drive Gear.
2. You have a 50/50 change of getting this right the first time.
Rotate the engine to where the TDC mark on the crank pulley lines up with the split in the crankcase.
Is the engine on TDC for #1 or #3?
You want #1.
So slowly turn the pulley just past (180 deg)-(1/2) turn clockwise.
Check and see if the (exhaust valve), is beginning to open on #1 cylinder.
(Yes it is) Your lucky because you got it right the first time.
Now turn the pulley counter clockwise until you line up the TDC mark again.
You are now on TDC #1 compression stroke. Move to Installing Drive Gear.
(No it's not) If the exhaust valve is not open you are on TDC #3.
So turn the pulley another (180 deg)-(1/2) a turn clockwise until you line up the TDC mark again.
You are now on TDC #1 compression stroke. Move to Installing Drive Gear.
OR
Link
INSTALLING DRIVE GEAR
Put some heavy grease on the washer.
This will hold it in place while you install the drive gear.
Install washer on gear.
Install the drive gear as pictured below.
Type 1 upright motor.
Type 4 Flat motor.
INSTALLING DISTRIBUTOR
Line up the rotor tip with the notch in the distributor rim.
Drop the distributor in.
Push down on the rotor and twist, to ma |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
williamM
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
My washer wants to be in the hole first- then the gear. 
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KentABQ
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Okay, I feel like the geeky kid who has been sent on a snipe hunt by the cool guys...
I have spent the last three evenings reading Beltley and Muir and watching YouTube videos. I have cleaned the fan pulley and rotated the friggin' crankshaft at least 50 times, and I swear there isn't a timing notch on there anywhere. There are two white paint marks, 180 degrees apart. And there is a timing scale that has been conveniently cleaned of all its readings, but does have two Sharpie marks on it. So even if I do get a new timing scale to replace the blank one, how do I find TDC?
I've tried assuming either of the paint marks is TDC, but the rotor isn't on the #1 cylinder on either mark. My logical brain tells me when the rotor is on #1, then both #1 valves are closed and to measure the gaps at that time. That seemed to work for #1 cylinder, but when I rotate the engine 180 degrees counterclockwise as stated in Muir, the valves on #2 are not closed.
What am I doing wrong? And don't tell me to look again for the notch in the crankshaft pulley, 'cause it ain't there. And my Bus Fever is turning into Bus Frustration...
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
The notch on the fan pulley is there somewhere.... You know it's in the inside lip of the pulley, not the side facing you. Start at your white marks and see if you can find it.
Best bet now is to pull the #1 sparkplug rotate until you can see the piston top. Somewhere that should correlate into your timing marks and the valves being closed. Then you can adjust your distributor and cap wires accordingly. Either way you need to get a timing scale and timing strobe light.
Post a pic of the timing marks on the scale as well as one or both marks on the fan too
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
When all else fails you can find TDC by removing #1 plug and plugging the hole with your finger, then turn the engine until you feel compression with your finger, stop turning when the mark reaches 0. Here's how to find the mark: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
No snipe hunt.
Follow the spark plug wire from #1 cylinder to the distributor cap, that is #1!
The wire don't lie. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KentABQ
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Thanks Busdaddy. I tried that after Tcash forwarded it on to me. I must not be coordinated enough, because I can't turn the alternator pulley fast enough to feel the pressure. And from watching a YouTube video, it may be at the top of the exhaust cycle, and to find out, watch the #3 & 4 valves. But again, I'm not limber and coordinated enough to spin the pulley and look at the valves.
The pulley turns very hard, compared to the video. But in the video, the engine is out and has no alternator to lug it down. I was thinking of taking off the belt and try turning the fan pulley. Think that will help?
Does everyone have this much trouble the first time?
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| Tcash wrote: |
No snipe hunt.
Follow the spark plug wire from #1 cylinder to the distributor cap, that is #1!
The wire don't lie. |
Doesn't really help any if he has taken the wires off the cap, or if they were not correctly installed before it got to him. I thought he said it's still not running yet....
Gotta back up, find the timing notch, and figure out which rotation it's on #1 compression stroke. Then you can know for sure the plug wires are indexed correctly and then adjust the distributor to be close enough to start.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| KentPS wrote: |
Thanks Busdaddy. I tried that after Tcash forwarded it on to me. I must not be coordinated enough, because I can't turn the alternator pulley fast enough to feel the pressure. And from watching a YouTube video, it may be at the top of the exhaust cycle, and to find out, watch the #3 & 4 valves. But again, I'm not limber and coordinated enough to spin the pulley and look at the valves.
The pulley turns very hard, compared to the video. But in the video, the engine is out and has no alternator to lug it down. I was thinking of taking off the belt and try turning the fan pulley. Think that will help?
Does everyone have this much trouble the first time? |
Trials and tribulations..... It gets easier.
The belt won't make it any easier to turn by hand. Pull some or all the spark plugs, that will make it easier to rotate the motor as you won't be fighting any compression then.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
| aerosurfer wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
Aaaannd that .66% bites you in the ass
|
Must be the Canadian conversion rate.... .54% for us Yanks |
... This is embarrassing... But if I give you the answer, you'll never learn. Both of you go do your homework again!
As for the OP
"Does everyone have this much trouble the first time?"
I had a running engine and it took me quite a while to really find my TDC and even once I did I didn't have a timing scale. But I knew my TDC and had a fancy timing light so managed to find it without the scale. My fan had a "0" mark on it when I looked through the inspection hole on top, as I'm sure you have run into in your searches. So you have no marks when you look through the inspection hole on the top of the fan shroud? That sucks!
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Ha.... I fat fingered that one for sure. Public school math corrected
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KentABQ
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:37 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Thanks for helping me through this frustration. Here is a pic of the fan pulley and surroundings. (I'm waiting for a socket extension I ordered to take off the smog pulley.)
If there is a notch on the front side of the pulley, I couldn't see it. No inspection port that I can find, and stuff in the way.
But I think I may have finally found the sob this morning...
Is that scratch the elusive TDC??? If so, I'm gonna make that white mark a bit more prominent for future use.
As for the scale...
...it is nicely scrubbed clean. But I found a thread about printing out one for temporary use. This one, though, has a red and a blue Sharpie mark on it. I'm assuming that will be useful for timing purposes, assuming the marks are correct and that I can get that far in this process.
And while on the subject of timing, Muir's timing chart shows to use 5*ATDC for a 1972 CB engine, or 10*ATDC for a 1973 CB. How do I find out which year this engine was scavenged from?
After work, I'll try adjusting the valves again. And I'm hoping for the best, since my patience level is still on the low end of the dip stick.
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aerosurfer
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever |
|
|
Thats the mark on the fan indeed.
How did you get the timing scale off the motor? Take off the whole pulley assembly, not just the spinner. Throw it all away! Are you using a set of metric tools? There are no special extensions that shouldn't be in a basic wratchet set.
The blue mark on the timing scale are in the range you need to get started. But either need ti make or buy a proper scale
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness
77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!
72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
