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63 vwnotch
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Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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I have some rust on my ghia, go figure!!
There is one area where it will be near impossible to cut and patch
It's flaking and pretty decent rust,however I haven't been able to completely push through what appears to be multiple layers of metal...
I've used SEM rust converter in the past and while it seemed to work "chemical reaction" I never kept the cars for longer than 3 yrs to find out..
The area inside corner I plan to remove what rust I can and hit it with a rust converter, apply ecapsulater, and fill with kitty hair for the time being..
What rust converter would you recommend, and is there something other than kitty hair you would suggest??
as far as encapsulates are concerned Im in the camp that any marine epoxy or a urethane with 200 hours salt spray testing would suffice... but then again throw out some suggestions as well...
In the mean time I just hit it with vinegar to give me a warm and fuzzy feeling...
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theKbStockpiler
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Joined: July 07, 2012
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Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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All Rust converters are an acid so they should all be the same. If you put on enough coats that it stays black when fully dry, it seems to work. The rust soaks it up.
If it's a structual piece you really should patch it. You could weld a piece over the damage. So the questions is whether your heater channels should be replaced or patched.
| Quote: |
| 200 hours salt spray testing would suffice.... |
Trailer hitches make this claim and they rust fast. More like 2 hours. 
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63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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sorry, the picture of the rust is inside the trunk, drivers side.. it's a very tight fit to even try and cut it out let alone weld it.. But ultimately if it has to be done I will have a go at it... but I'm hoping it not to bad once I remove ducting and start removing more rust.... not really sure how it rusted there but I'm finding ghias are a oem different animal then I'm used to..
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theKbStockpiler
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Joined: July 07, 2012
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Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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If your not a great welder now ,you will be after a ghia project.
I wanted a welding project and was looking at ghia's but looking at images of them torn down on the internet changed my mind. 
The only places you can't weld are those that you can not get a good 3D image of (depth perception of the weld pool) and also where the nozzle will not fit. If you can't get the proper view ,you can't weld. I can weld with my left hand while using my thumb to hold the trigger. 
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63 vwnotch
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Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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I'm no welder by a stretch... but I'm willing to learn  yeah this area is against the fire wall (dash) and I doubt the handle would even fit let alone being able to see what you are welding...
what about using metal 2 metal instead of the kitty hair?? if in fact I'm forced to go this route...
this car is NOT going to turn into a complete restoration atm as I intend to enjoy it for a couple years beforehand, however I would like to tackle the obvious issues to prevent further deterioration...
it's a solid driver and all original but the 2 people that owned it before me obviously were not VW peeps, although they took care of it to the best of their ability...they were oblivious to issues that may arise with these cars...
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kman
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Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| You will be able to get in there with an angle die grinder and a fiber disk. It will take off most of the rust. After, spray the area with some Ospho or the like and wait to dry for a day. Then you can brush on some epoxy or encapsulator. If it leaves a hole you can fill with some reinforced filler until you are ready for a more thorough repair (which may be never). Your windshield seal or trunk lid may be leaking letting water into this area. |
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63 vwnotch
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Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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I've never used Ospho but have always heard good things about it, I think I will pick up a quart of it.. maybe a gallon
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63 vwnotch
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Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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went ahead and bought a gallon of Ospho from Ace, not a bad price at all... stuff seems simular to what I've used in the past but cheaper, 1qt is $14 so my was twisted to buy a gallon for $28 out the door...
I applied it to the wire brushed rust and it turned black, however I did another area of the car without prepping the rust and it did not turn black. and just left somewhat of a sheen with no color change... guess wire brushing is key here??
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kman
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Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| yes. It's important to still get as much rust off as you can. The more rust the more you have to use and keep it wet longer. You don't want to just turn the top layer black. Get in there with a chisel, file, whatever it takes to knock as much off as you can and treat after. Also don't paint over it too soon. Let dry for at least a day or longer. |
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theKbStockpiler
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Location: Rust Belt
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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Here's a thorough thread on this subject at STF by Ray Greenwood.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&a...40144858f8
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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Thanks for the plug! ......also as to the earlier point ....no all rust converters are not the same.
Most are similar....but solution strength matters....buffering ingredients matter as well as variations in the polymers each night or might not use as a surface protectant.
In the phopsphoric acid world.....I have found Ospho to be basic and the easiest to use. For serious work I have taken to Jasco metal prep and prime. Its solution strength is about 2.5X what Ospho is. It can be diluted or used straight.
Iyou are spot on. For basic rust converter like ospho....the rust must be as thin as possible....but it must not be rust free or there will be nothing to convert and no protection.
For thicker stuff...Jasco will eat through most anything when used straight. The risk is that kf you are using Jasco undiluted....on thin flash rust.....it will dissolve it all away before it gets to the drying stage.....and again.....no rust to convert....no real protection (outside of paint).
Rust Mort is also a high solution strength phosphoric acid product. There is also another product out there....I will have to look in my bookmarks......that uses a different chemical that phosphoric acid....its not acid based..... and is a very effective rust converter but slower and quite expensive.
But if you have serious rust to convert and its in a sensitive location like beneath a dash with lots of plated electrical connections....it would be worthwhile. Ray |
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theKbStockpiler
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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Ray,what's the point of a phosphoric acid based product when it barely removes rust anyways? Is it supposed to remove rust and suspend it in the protectant when cured? 
Could Muriatic acid be brushed on before a rust converter?
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My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
Ray,what's the point of a phosphoric acid based product when it barely removes rust anyways? Is it supposed to remove rust and suspend it in the protectant when cured?
Could Muriatic acid be brushed on before a rust converter? |
Because phosphoric acid...CONVERTS rust to iron phosphate.
Iron phosphate....besides being THE BEST primer for paint and coatings known to man...better than ANYTHING.....will not rust again...EVER...IF...IF...you can keep it dry and IF...its coating is smooth.
Also...they are not designed to be rust REMOVERS. They are rust CONVERTERS. Totally different thing.
The very best usage for a phosphoric acid product is after mechanical rust and paint removal...and after the clean metal is allowed to flash rust.
This is why phosphoric acid is best used to kill thin surface rust in joints and seams and covert wide ranging flash rust....where you cannot reach or grind.
Phosphoric acid does not...BARELY remove rust.
Ospho...and other weaker phosphoric acid mixtures barely remove rust.
In fact...Jasco....full strength...removes CRUSTY rust almost as well as muriatic acid. While its solution strength is still lower than muriatic acid....its 2.5X the solution strength of Ospho.
Heavy and thick rust should be removed by either mechanical means...or with something like muriatic acid....which will dissolve rust right down to metal.
The hazards of muriatic acid though....are that is must be rinsed and neutralized carefully. There are areas you can't use it if its going to run into areas you cannot reach or rinse. So..you can't just use it for every rust situation.
Also...and this is a big risk....using muriatic acid and also high solution strength phosphoric acid solutions...in enclosed areas....like inside of the cars passenger compartment....because the fumes of these products are literally acid vapors.....can shred your wiring connection system as it attacks brass and plated surfaces...and also aluminum parts and chromed surfaces.
Ask me how I know ... ....in the past I screwed up some serious parts. You can finish your work rinse, neutralize, rinse...mop up all the liquid and think you are home free. Come back a month later and notice that all of your fuse block contacts and every contact on the back of your instruments...is corroded to hell.
The fact that some people are selling products like Ospho as rust removers....which they will do...eventually...if you pour enough on it for long enough...which means $$$...in their pocket....is just selling a good product for an unintended use to make money with it.
The issue with rust converters...is that as they work to dissolve or convert rust .....their PH is neutralized by the chemical process....which means they no longer work.
So if you have rust .010" thick....any phosphoric acid product...unless its got a high enough solution strength to dissolve away about .007" of that rust...will kill itself before it gets more than about .003" into the rust. At that point as it dries and oxygen gets into the mix it converts that .003" range of rust it penetrated...into black iron phosphate.
However....you still have .007" of rust underneath...which contains enough moisture and oxygen to keep rusting for quite a while.
This is why Jasco works so well. Its STRONG...so is Rust Mort. You really have to pay attention as you use it.
If you have a thick patch of rust in an area you just cannot grind....and want to neutralize it....start brushing the Jasco on and work it around. Observe as the rust gets thinner and dissolves away. When you still have rust and you are down very near the surface.....grab the air hose and blow the Jasco off. Then take a small brush and rewet it with diluted Jasco...about the same strength as ospho.
Let it dry....24 hours...completely. Then come back with a small sharp dental pick. Prick the converted area. If clean metal is underneath with no red rust in between the black surface...you are done. Wipe it down with acetone and apply a primer. It will last forever.
If red rust shows through....time for another round. Ray |
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theKbStockpiler
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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Ray, how is it that if Muriatic acid is used ,it breaks the bond of the rust to the metal? It will more than convert it. There is conversion with the bond still being intact or maybe just the bond being broken with no conversion.
Also ,Muriatic acid will accelerate rust on the piece of metal that it was intended to remove the rust if allowed to dry. I use Rustoleum Rust Stripper and the issue with that is to neutralize it when you end a session of using it.
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My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
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63 vwnotch
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Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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interesting to hear about the jasco, I thought it would be a joke... funny how other rod forums and the like seem to praise Ospho as the end all be all.. I've used SEM before and had I known it was stronger would have went that route.. Maybe if I use multiple coats of the Ospho it will make one coat of SEM or Jasco??
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63 vwnotch
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Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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picked up some Jasco and used a touch of it... if going by smell alone I would say Ospho is MUCH stronger, comparing the two you could practically drink the Jasco...
From my experience with chemicals the stronger the smell, stronger the product... I'm going to do some further testing as I respect Ray's opinion and he's FAR more educated than I am regarding this issue to say the least...
It was only $7 qt. out the door at Lowes, needless to say I have gl. Ospho and 1 QT Jasco so I'm prepared to take on the world!!
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
Ray, how is it that if Muriatic acid is used ,it breaks the bond of the rust to the metal? It will more than convert it. There is conversion with the bond still being intact or maybe just the bond being broken with no conversion.
Also ,Muriatic acid will accelerate rust on the piece of metal that it was intended to remove the rust if allowed to dry. I use Rustoleum Rust Stripper and the issue with that is to neutralize it when you end a session of using it. |
Again....SOLUTION STRENGTH!
Not all acids are the same. Not only is there the sollution strength issue....there are polarity and chemical make up issues.
Let me explain solution strength:
All thats required to call a chemical an acid......is PH below about 6.5. And so I don't get this too complicated for the conversation.....PH is a direct math correlation fo solution strength. ...meaning its concentration.
If you measure PH of Muriatic acid .....without thinking about how "strong" it is....its effectively a PH of 1.0.
If you measure the PH of phosphorous acid in Jasco.....its effectively a PH of 1.0
So nothing useful there right?...same-same?
So lets add water to dilute each acid until it reaches a PH of 3.0....which while still an acid to human contact. ...is to diluted to do anything fof us.
Muriatic acid dilution requirment: it will require approximately 12,000 to 15,000 gallons of water to bring the PH of 1 gallon of Muriatic acid......from its 1.0 PH to 3.0 PH....depending on the existing alkalinity and mineral cintent of the water.... ......
Jasco dilution rate: about 50 gallons of water to bring 1 gallon of Jasco from 1.0 PH to 3.0 PH.....again...depending on water makeup.
Get it?
Muriatic acid dissolves rust because of its solution strength.....and it does not convert rust...because of its mineral mame up. Both acids are "mineral" acids.
But phosphoric acid.....is dilute/weak enough, has the right polarity and mneral ions to take advantage of the ionic bonds it breaks up in rust....to recombine into iron phosphate.
Muriatic acid is so strong it destroys the bond sites needed for a conversion coating.... ..and has no phosphate to put into the equation.
The flash rusting with muriatic acids is primarly caused by hydrogenation at the surface...combined with the smaller fact that it strips away all oils. Its technially very light hydrogen embrittlement on the surface of metal.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| 63 vwnotch wrote: |
picked up some Jasco and used a touch of it... if going by smell alone I would say Ospho is MUCH stronger, comparing the two you could practically drink the Jasco...
From my experience with chemicals the stronger the smell, stronger the product... I'm going to do some further testing as I respect Ray's opinion and he's FAR more educated than I am regarding this issue to say the least...
It was only $7 qt. out the door at Lowes, needless to say I have gl. Ospho and 1 QT Jasco so I'm prepared to take on the world!! |
Uh.....no....good God.....read the paperwork.....and you can kill yourself that way....as stated....and you can see this in the MSDS ALONE......Jasco is roughly 2.5X STRONGER than Ospho......period.
Same active ingredient....2.5 times more of that in Jasco than there is in Ospho. The part that smells....is not even an active ingredient.
Also....be sure of what you are looking at. JASCO.....is not a product name. Its a brand name. They have about 200 products. As noted. ...what we are talking about here. ...specifically. ..is Jasco metal prep and prime. They have strong versions and weak versions like Ospho.
I have some chemicals ....one is a solvent......that have no smell at all ......that can drop you dead in under a minute. One is a paint thinner......the other is not.
The paint thinner smells like it could launch the space shuttle......and its fairly weak. The other chemical is a hexane, methanol and carbon tetrachloride mixture.....has virtually no smell......and will kill you dead with too large of a whiff.....largely because the carbon-tet EATS oxygen. Ray |
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63 vwnotch
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Joined: December 31, 2002
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Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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touche, you can't smell carbon monoxide and a lot of other deadly chemicals, point taken..
I did buy the metal prep and prime, used some more today and a drip hit the concrete acted like muriatic immediately and phizzed... I'm under the impression you've done your homework on this stuff and can probably recite the spec sheet so I'm going to run with the Jasco... it's a vert and has the access to heater channel at rear wheel well think I will open that up some more and prep what I can, douse a sponge in Jasco and feed it in there... was also thinking about extending a wand on a Hudson and spray it like that.. then hit it with some rust encapsulater...
seems to work good, i noticed the smell only from briefly working with it, ospho seemed it would burn your eyes if you let it without ventilation..
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rust Converters Revisited.... What do you use?? |
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| 63 vwnotch wrote: |
touche, you can't smell carbon monoxide and a lot of other deadly chemicals, point taken..
I did buy the metal prep and prime, used some more today and a drip hit the concrete acted like muriatic immediately and phizzed... I'm under the impression you've done your homework on this stuff and can probably recite the spec sheet so I'm going to run with the Jasco... it's a vert and has the access to heater channel at rear wheel well think I will open that up some more and prep what I can, douse a sponge in Jasco and feed it in there... was also thinking about extending a wand on a Hudson and spray it like that.. then hit it with some rust encapsulater...
seems to work good, i noticed the smell only from briefly working with it, ospho seemed it would burn your eyes if you let it without ventilation.. |
Just be sure where you are putting that Jasco full strength. If you are really trying to REMOVE all rust...yes...use it straight but mind your surroundings...and be sure to rinse it, dry it and them go back over it with diluted Jasco.
I don't like to dilute it down to ospho level which means for example adding 2.5 ounces of water to 1 ounce of Jasco.....I mix it 50/50 for dilute form. It allows it to penetrate a little bit thicker rust. Ray |
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