Destroying oil filters

[Bashr52]

I had an issue with a stuck rear plunger on the 2110 I just built when I started it on the test stand to break it in. Both oil plungers fit smoothly into their bores on assembly. I pulled the rear plunger (it was stuck tight) and and reamed the bore out and polished the plunger. Engine was then run successfully for break in and tuning. Started it up again Saturday night to show my dad since it will be going into his car, and all was fine.

Sunday morning we dragged over his car over to my house, drained and changed the engine oil, and installed it into his car. Break in was done with 20-50 brad penn (the only weight that was locally available), new engine oil is 10-30. Got everything hooked up, engine fired right up, ran for 3-5 seconds, and proceeded to blow out another oil filter. I pulled the rear plunger spring and cap, gently pulled on the inside of the plunger with a screw drive, and it fell smoothly out of the bore. It doesn't appear to be sticking at all.

I have not pulled the front plunger as the external sump is going to make it a real pain to get too.

The oil pressure gauge was fluctuating all over and eventually pinned the gauge right before the filter blew. The engine always had good oil pressure prior to tear down, it would be 60 psi cold, and then stay around 20+ pounds when warm. I thought perhaps the rear spring had been swapped for a stiffer one at some point to try and combat a low pressure issue, but I compared it to another stock one and length/coil diameter appeared to be identical. It doesn't feel any harder to compress than the one I was comparing it too.

Suggestions?

[raygreenwood]

Read my description in the thread on this page about 26mm vs 30mm oil pumps.

While I realize that you noted that 20/50 was all that you had on hand......its essentially 50 weight?....right?.....and if you have a larger than stock pump.....the spikey, fluctuating result on the oil pressure gauge.....and the exploding filter as a punctuation point.....is exactly what it looks like when the combination of oil punp size, oil weight, temperature and possibly relief spring pressure ......combine to give huge oil pressure which can both damage things and bypass the oil cooler.

Its also worth noting that if you think about how the stock system works.....at just the right relief orifice size....even a grossly oversize pump that dumps the relief valve too soon because of excessive pressure created by excessive volume......will not necessarily COMPLETELY bypass the oil cooler. The oil cooler is never fully bypassed. The relief valve simply creates a path of least resistance for the excessive oil volume. It does not "cut off" the oil cooler inlet.

While pressure and flow may be reduced when the relief valve operates......if the volume is just right....significant flow even at reduced pressure (which lowers the cooling efficiency)....can still happen to the oil cooler......and the owner may never see adverse effects in the right climate with the right oil.

I don't agree with the endless list of people who give the normal argument when the oil pressure/pump size/ viscosity question arises.....something like...." been making engines for 400 years....made millions with 80mm oil pumps....never had any that bypassed the cooler....yall must be doing something wrong".

Its not just the oil pump size. Its a whole slew of items stacked up that can make the difference between excessive oil pressure from a larger pump with higher viscosity......main and rod bearing oil clearances, rod side clearances, pump efficiency due to tolerances, most especially gap between pump and case and inlet/outlet ports, tightness of every oil fed part in the engine to the case where it is, oil temp and ambient temp.....full flowing with or without filter.

But from what I have seen....aside from having incorrect springs.....what your post indicates is exactly what I have seen with a large pump, tight oil tolerances and high viscosity oil.

But you also need to check the pressure on the relief valve springs....and check the operation of the ball check valve in the filter head. Ray

[mark tucker]

filter was plumbed rong, cheep ass filter,zinning a cold engine,too thick oil for engine clearances,rong piston or spring and it not uncovering the exhaust port. or just cloged filter. It is not the pumps fault!!!. the pumps will put out the same pressure, it's a higher volume pump!!. the engine was cold!! so.. it was not the pump size!!! you need to find the real issue instead of beating this dead horshit of a 30mm pump killing engines. my vote is rong pluming of filter. and the stuck piston was shit from the filter that was plumbed rong stuck in the bore. the engine is dead. tear it all appart&rebearing it. do it all right this tyme. I know I sound like a dick but Im not. just trying to tell you. look at the bearings do they have speclkels? or smudges? or spots? there full of shit!!!! why??? because the filter let iot get to the bearings...why?? plumbed rong or!!! you did not change oil soon enough & enough times to keep the filter from bypassing the shit to the bearings. cam lube clogs filters quickley!!!! and the bypass pressure is only about....squat!!!!!. if your too cheep for more oil then atleast get 4 cheep filters to change every 30 min of life of a new engine.and hope for the best. and put a new cooler on it now, it's full of shit. be sure to throughly clean every line&oil gally for debris too. along with the filter bracket/mount, if you have a deep sump...yes you do. it will need a real good cleaning, as in breakleen, then pressure washing so every nook&granny in the coroners office gets cleared out so no more death exzist in there.

[Bashr52]

Not sure how this became a oil pump discussion, I never said there was a 30mm pump on the thing, it's a blueprinted melling.

Original filter blew with lines hooked up immediately on startup, more oil came out of it than went through the engine. Upon draining it, the magnetic drain plug had very little debris on it, more just bearing material from initial wear-in.

Oil that is in it now is 10-30. Like I said above, it ran perfect Saturday night on the stand, blew filter in the car the next morning. All that changed was the oil weight (thinner) and we mounted the filter on the car and had to extend the lines. I double checked they went onto the filter adapter the correct way this time.

Next step is I'm going to pull the front plunger and verify that is free in its bore.

[mark tucker]

check for plumbed corectly, and a restriction. also there is no normal bearing material from inital brealkin. a little iron from cylinders yes,almost nothing from cam, but filter cloging cam lube.. lines too small, fittings too small, a restriction somewhere, rong cooler seals.cloged cooler...

[williamM]

will you tell what size the pump is
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[mark tucker]

how is the filter plumbed?from the oil pump then in the center hole of the filter and out the outer holes of the filter to the engine? the issue is after the oil pump and hose to the filter addaptor from the pump..

[74 Thing]

I thought Mellings are at least 30mm.

[[email protected]]

Melling pumps for the VW engine are 30 and 35mm.

There is a good chance that 30W oil is still too thick with that pump.
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[FeelthySanchez]

Bash,
I dealt w/ an identical situation in late '70s using a blueprinted OG stock small gear pump feeding 10/30 thru a Rapid Cool remote cooler & filter package.
As an interim patch only, the FLAPS (Bap Geon) counterman suggested I install a MANN - which to my delight immediately cured the bursting remote US-made filters.
Never did figure out the spiking pressure issue & just rolled w/ it. Pressure gauge showed 45psi cold/idle (750 RPM) thru those 3/4" neoprene lines, & I just shook my my head in happy disbelief.
After 6k street miles the engine's internals had loosened-up enough to risk another attempt at using a US-made (Motorcraft FL1) filter, which did hold together @ 35psi cold idle.
G'luck & as always, YMMV.
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[williamM]

I might have missed it, but are you also running a remote cooler?
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[Bashr52]

No external cooler, just full-flow to filter. Filter plumbed into the element, out the center hole.

Lets go on the assumption the pump is 30mm. It was the one that was installed in the engine during the last rebuild and it fits the cast tight and has always given good oil pressure wen with the oil was hot. Never had this issue before.

The engine was full-flowed the last time it was rebuilt (6-7 years ago). Same setup is being used now. Oil cooler is the same as before as well, just was cleaned out before use, checked for leaks, etc.

We're running a Purolator 30001 filter. Same filter I have run on countless engines before with no issues.

[KTPhil]

Sorry to take a slight detour, but I'm confused by the idea that 20-50 oil is thicker than 30 wt.

The lower number is the viscosity when cold, so a 20-50 will be thinner than 30wt when cold.

At higher temperatures, the 20-50 will not thin out as a 30 will, and acts more like a 50 which will be thicker at higher temperatures.

When did this blow out, when cold or after running and fully warmed up?

EDIT: I see you said just 3-5 seconds. So the 20-50 oil would be thinner than straight 30, though thicker than a 10-30. I am doubting 20st oil would blow out a filter unless there was a blockage or too much pressure input. I'll leave the specifics to the experts on oil pressure (which I am not).

[raygreenwood]

[[email protected]]

but multi grade should be used, like 0-20, 5-30, etc. So at cold start, you are dealing with 20W compared to 0W. 20W is too thick, hence the problem. There may be other problems too, like a sticky/stiff relief piston, and/or bad filter, and/or filter adapter fitting which is not perpendicular to the housing (not uncommon at all).

I know that 20-50 can go over 250psi in cold weather, I found out the hard way 30 years ago.

[Dale M.]

I have seem pressure go excessively high on start up, and quality of filter construction is paramount keeping things together.... We were using Fram HP filters and bursting them, went to WIX or NAPA filters (made by WIX) and problem went away...

Dale
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[mikedjames]

[mark tucker]

Ive seen sokme people put the peddell down and when it zings they let up. thats a good way to pop hose or filter. that will spike it butt good. when there is air in the hose and the oil hit a wall so to speak.I just spin mine till it starts.usualy 10 sec or less.that lets oil got through the lines. without doing a forensic investigation were all gessing it's up to you to figure it out.

[raygreenwood]

And.....not to get ofc subject.....Oh...and please God.....not to turn this into an "oil" issue.....but as pertaining to a previous comment.......20/W50......is a 50 weight oil. All the 20 means is that it has shear and flow modifiers that allow it NOT to increase its viscosity and tack level as the temperature drops. So.....it "flows" more like a 20 weight at cold temperatures. But its actual viscosity index....what most would describe as its "thickness" or body.....is still a 50 weight. There will never be a time when a 20/50 will be a lower "viscosity" than a 30 wt. Ray

[esde]