Could impact cause head gasket failure?

[armypathfinder]

I was wondering if anyone else has seen this happen:
I ran over road debris (roof flew off an atv being towed in front of me) that gave my 85 vanagon exhaust a significant hit (snapped one of the exhaust to engine stabilizer bolts). Previously dry head gaskets started leaking right then and there on the side of the highway. Insurance company says "nope, just leaking head gaskets, not our clients fault" (of course). While on a traditional engine I would say, yes, pretty darn unlikely, with the WBX configuration and the thick rubber head gaskets, it seems like a no brainer to me that the impact broke the seal.
Has anyone else seen an exhaust impact cause a head gasket leak or am I just the unluckiest person on the planet?

[the joker]

Insurance companies are scumbags get a new engine out of the deal

a well placed letter from a lawyer will do wonders

[Gauche1968]

Want to go to court over it? Insurance company lawyer, "Vanagon engines have a long history of head gasket problems." You, "GoWesty disagrees, I submit article from Lucas Valdez arguing head gasket problems are a maintenance issue, and I have meticulously changed the coolant every two years." Law and Order sound. Commercial break.
_________________
1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy

[Terry Kay]

For that despise impact to cause the head seal to burst, it would have had to take out the engine tin, the valve cover, 4 pushrod tubes, pushrods, snapped the head bolts,and flatten out the exhaust system on that head.

Highly unlikely, but anything is possible, and if you do have all of the items I mentioned crushed, then you would have a leg to stand on.

You sound like you're a real unlucky guy.

I sure would like to see some real clear pictures of the impact area.
_________________
T.K.

[armypathfinder]

I disagree - it wouldn't have to take out or dent any of that - and didn't. The exhaust hangs below all of that and the heads are then sandwiched up between the ports. The only thing between exhaust - where it was impacted - and the ground are the stabilizing struts - one of which the impact broke the mounting bolt for at the engine case. A good rap to the bottom of the exhaust would simply transmit through to the heads (totally bypassing any damage to the push rod tubes or shields or valve covers). The issue is how stable do the head bolts keep the head against the flat edge of the head gasket when hit with a shearing force at a 90deg angle to the direction that they are providing clamping force.

[mikemtnbike]

Are you suggesting it bent the studs? Lot of labor but you could check that. Now proving cause=effect is a whole other story
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual

[bluebus86]

document it the damage well with pitcures. also show or have witness attest to fact that head started leaking immediatly after collision and if you have a regular maintanence done recently by a shop get a statement that shows that head had no leaks prior to collision.

with this evidence, file a small claim lawsuit against the other car owner. the small claims filling means the i surance company will have to send an agent to court to defend the case, it will also put the other car owner possibly on the insurance company also as he will be telling them to settle rather than go to court as he will have to appear in person.

nothing gets the bastard crook insurance agents attention like a court date, that may make them settle in a fair manner.


good luck, fight them sobs!!!!

ps also claim time lost from work for repairs, time lost looking for a repair shop, etc... also claim you need a rental van (not a geo metro!!) for the time van will be in shop. work up the dollar value as high as you can with lost wages and rentals, thismwill give you wiggle room in the deal you make. maybe if you give up the rental, or wages money they will agree to pay for the repair

I have done this more than once, you have to really push back, file a lawsuit, have photos and list all your percieved losses. the rotten agent may not want to risk having a judge rule for e erything in your favor, so they will try to cut a deal never ever sign a release untill AFTER you recieve the money. had one company the day before court call me up to settle for everyhting I sued for, but they wanted me to cancel court and they promised verbally that they would send me the money, haha no fool here. I made them cut me a check that evening, boy where they pissed, they were up to a trick, as once I dismiss the court case, I have no recourse. crooks (that was AAA insurance)
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022

[IdahoDoug]

I agree this could happen. The thick rubber seals mean the head is essentially "floating" atop the rubber, held in place by the head gaskets. A good whack as described on the exhaust would shift the heads, flex the head bolts, and then it all rebounds back in place, but the seal is broken. No visual change if you bend down and look a it. The exhaust is bolted directly to the head and easily strong enough to do that.

The issue may be that you are calling that a head gasket and the insurance company knows what a traditional thin HG is and says no way that happened. And they'd be right. However, what actually happened is the WATER JACKET SEAL was pulled out of place by the impact. Use that correct phrase. not head gasket. Your head gasket is a metal sealing ring at the top of the cylinder/head interface and it is fine.

Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Tom Powell]

[danfromsyr]

might want to check the oil as well.
if it upset a headbolt and could create a seeping leak into the oil side of the engine.
pop the valve cover off (have new VC gasket handy) and see if any coolant in there.
_________________

[armypathfinder]

yeah, at this point I'll probably end up just rebuilding either the engine in it or a spare that I have. I won't bother with just doing the heads not knowing what else may have been stressed getting whacked that hard. I'm already missing out of enjoying it for the fall driving here in New England - grrrrr!
You're right about the nomenclature - I should be more specific dealing with them. I spoke to my insurance today and they said that they would cover it and go after his insurance for recomp. They agreed that the other insurance did pretty poor research and due diligance. The only issue is that I will have to pay my deductible until either they or I get his insurance to fess up.

Terry Kay - Thank you for your comments, but I'm not trying to start a massive debate over the strengths and weakness of the design or whether it is possible and provide all sorts of case studies. It is a fact that it happened. I had just replaced the push rod tubes over the summer with collapsible ones. I didn't use factory style tubes specifically because there was no reason to pull the heads. I had literally just left a state inspection station 10 minutes before the accident where it was up in the air and the inspector commented how clean and dry the engine was. I ran over an ATV roof, felt the impact, and pulled over to find coolant leaking out. The right hand rear exhaust strut mounting to the case was snapped. It actually hit hard enough that it dislodged the O ring in the thermostat housing for the crossover tube, which is higher up on the engine. ( I replaced that myself hoping that that was the extent of it). My only question was whether others had experienced this sort of failure. I'm an ASE master mechanic with 26 years experience on VW and Porsche (although it's not my full time gig). I've seen plenty of head damage on Porsches here in New England from bottoming out the exhaust on potholes, but VW waterboxers only make up about 2% of my automotive experience, hence the group question.

[Terry Kay]

I believe it happened, it's the probability of it happening that seems distant.

But, the Titanic sank first trip out, and it was allegidly unsinkable.
Anything can happen I guess, the probability is just pretty low.
_________________
T.K.

[[email protected]]

Off road cars with flat 4 engines have problems with the "Butterly effect", where a hard landing and suspension bottoming out, coupled with the mass of the cylinder heads and exhaust system, to put enough force on the head studs to momentarily leak. Sometimes damaging the head stud by over stretching it.

Of course hitting something on the exhaust hard could do the same thing, especially with old, brittle gaskets. Even if it's true, you'll never "convince" any insurance company of this without going to court. Their job is to delay, delay, delay, until you drop it.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

[armypathfinder]

I agree with all of the comments about the insurance. I'm certainly glad it's not my daily driver so I can afford to hang in there for them to (hopefully) do what's right. And VERY glad that I have an independent mechanic who can honestly certify that there were zero leaks 15 minutes before the accident.

[[email protected]]

For the OP. I have found that understanding who is at fault here, is really important.

In this case, those you have the issue with are the owners of the RV. You have 0 contract with their insurance company, the RV owners do. Having YOU deal with their insurance company is one of the ways they get you to waste your time, and eventually give up.

Simply refuse to deal with their insurance company, deal with the owners directly. Tell them if it's not resolved quickly you are taking THEM to court.

The fact that their insurance company is a PITA to deal with, is their problem, not your problem. You have no contract with them whatsoever, and they are obligated to do nothing for YOU.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

[Wildthings]

Get an estimate on having the damage repaired and file a small claims action for that amount plus such things as a rental car for while the work is being done. The guy that is at fault will jump all over his insurance company if he is suddenly looking at paying $5000 out of his pocket over this.

[Abscate]

[Mellow Yellow 74]

Check the wording of your insurance policy. If it covers collision damage and you can prove that there was a collision with the road debris which caused damage to the engine then the engine damage should be covered. You need to check the definition of collision includes road debris then the difficulty will be proving that there was collision damage due to the road debris and this is what damaged the engine.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)

[Terry Kay]

I wanna see this one play out.

It isn't road debris, it's flying debris off of the vehicle in front of the poster.

Got a police report documenting this incident?

If not, forget about it.

No pictures of the damage, it didn't happen.
No pictures of the flying debris & the aftermath, I think it's an Eesop tale deal.
_________________
T.K.

[armypathfinder]

yup. I have a police report that states that the roof from the others guy ATV flew off and damaged my car. So in effect there is a police witness as to the damage caused. He guessed at under $1k in damage for purposes of classifying the report type. (apparently there are several classifications of accident reports here - no property damage, under $1k, and over $1k).