| Author |
Message |
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:25 am Post subject: Camshaft differences |
 |
|
Hi,
I have a 1.7L type 4 engine with carbs.
My camshaft is not good, and need to replace.
Is there a different between original VW 2.0L camshaft, 1.8Lcamshaft and 1.7L camshaft?
I found a 2.0 NOS camshaft but I have to know if it will work good at my engine? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
Hi,
I have a 1.7L type 4 engine with carbs.
My camshaft is not good, and need to replace.
Is there a different between original VW 2.0L camshaft, 1.8Lcamshaft and 1.7L camshaft?
I found a 2.0 NOS camshaft but I have to know if it will work good at my engine? |
On the 411/412 and Porsche 914.....all of the fuel injected models probably from 1969 or 1970 onward....except the European version of the Porsche 914 2.0.....used the same Camshaft.
The early 411s....say through 1968 and early 1969 used a camshaft with slightly different valve timing. Even that valve timing is acceptable with fuel injection with tuning modifications.
I would not use any of the stock camshafts whether they are NOS or not. All of them ran extremely hot and there are far better camshafts available now.
Also the stock camshafts has "reasonable" but not perfect longevity. ..when used with new factory lifters....which do not exist any longer. The type 4 lifter and metallurgy is critical to the camshaft surviving very long at all.
What year is your car?.....youur best bet if this is otherwise to remain stock....is to buy a Web Cam #73 or a #9590......from the Type 4 store. Buy the lifters at the same time from the same manufacturer as they are matched.
Both of these cams are based on the original intake valve timing of the early carburetted camshaft but the #73 has slightly more duration.....and the 9590.....has a slightly split pattern for better cooling.
Both are far better than any of the stock cams. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
71 411 automatic.
If I'll use the 2.0l. How the engine response? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
71 411 automatic.
If I'll use the 2.0l. How the engine response? |
Unchanged.
The 411 with carbs had less power because of lower compression and carburation....coupled with the small valves that actually worked better with the fuel injection.
The stock 914 2.0 camshaft used with D-jet injection was identical to the camshaft that went into the 1.7L with D-jet injection...same part #....and was not ideal.
You will do better if you want better throttle response with either carbs or fuel injection to use one of the two camshafts I suggested. It will run slightly cooler as well.
The European 2.0L camshaft that came on the higher HP late 2.0 914 engine is better but not really optimized for carburetors either....and there is then still the issue of getting compatible lifters.
If you already have it....sell it to the 914 guys as they pay top dollar for items like this simply to keep their cars 100% original for resale value. What you would get for it would more than cover the cost of either of the other two camshafts. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
I don't have it. I found one for sale.
If I put scat c25 will the engine work better?
Moreover, the rocker geometric should be change? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
I don't have it. I found one for sale.
If I put scat c25 will the engine work better?
Moreover, the rocker geometric should be change? |
The scat C25 is a good cam. For carbs it should work well.
With any of the aftermarket cams...rocker geometry will change "some". It can be as little as rocker stand shims with the Web 73 and 9590. I do not know on the scat cam.
While Scat is a very good manufacturer....the other two cams I mentioned have more experience with type 4 cams. In my opinion I would purchase from either one of those first. There is also more information out ther on the Web cams and the Type 4 store cams which are made by Web cam but designed by Jake Raby.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dawie
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2008
Posts: 217
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| That 2L cam... is it a 2L Bus cam or 2L 914 cam? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| dawie wrote: |
| That 2L cam... is it a 2L Bus cam or 2L 914 cam? |
you mean the c25?
i dont understand... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
| dawie wrote: |
| That 2L cam... is it a 2L Bus cam or 2L 914 cam? |
you mean the c25?
i dont understand... |
He was asking whether the NOS 2.0L cam you had found....was for a 2.0L type 4 bus engine or actually for the 2.0L 914 engine......as they are very different cams.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
| dawie wrote: |
| That 2L cam... is it a 2L Bus cam or 2L 914 cam? |
you mean the c25?
i dont understand... |
He was asking whether the NOS 2.0L cam you had found....was for a 2.0L type 4 bus engine or actually for the 2.0L 914 engine......as they are very different cams.
Ray |
mmm, the seller say its for 2.0L bus.
is there any way to check it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
| dawie wrote: |
| That 2L cam... is it a 2L Bus cam or 2L 914 cam? |
you mean the c25?
i dont understand... |
He was asking whether the NOS 2.0L cam you had found....was for a 2.0L type 4 bus engine or actually for the 2.0L 914 engine......as they are very different cams.
Ray |
mmm, the seller say its for 2.0L bus.
is there any way to check it? |
Part # primarily....but either,way you do not want it in a 411 or 412. It will drive poorly. Been there. The bus cams are different. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Shlomi32
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Israel
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| What you are running now? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Shlomi32 wrote: |
| What you are running now? |
I have run the Web #73...excellent cam. Works well for bot stock carbs and stock fuel inection. I am building an engine now that,will use the Raby 9550....which is the Web #73 with about 4° more exhaust overlap which will run cooler.
The 9590 is an improvement over the 9550 with a small duration change I think....primarily to help head cooling with alcohol additives.
You have stock carburetors correct? Any of these cams including the C25 would be an improvement for you. The biggest single change you could make would be to increase compression to a minimum of 8.0 :1. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kharon8
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2011
Posts: 375
Location: Espoo, Finland
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
European version of 1.8l engine had compression 8.5:1 as stock.
One year only, -74, with dual carbs. It was done with domed pistons (N/A now), no other differences AFAIK.
It had some problems with emissions in US so US-version had only 7.5:1 compression (with dished pistons) and fuel injection.
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Kharon8 wrote: |
European version of 1.8l engine had compression 8.5:1 as stock.
One year only, -74, with dual carbs. It was done with domed pistons (N/A now), no other differences AFAIK.
It had some problems with emissions in US so US-version had only 7.5:1 compression (with dished pistons) and fuel injection. |
Yes....and the US spec 412 engine....1.8L was a miserable hot running engine because of that. Between the L-jet and low compression....it ran hot and had less HP and throttle reaponse than the 1.7. However at one point in time I was able to set one up with flat tops and about 8.4:1 compression and it was night and day better. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Kharon8 wrote: |
European version of 1.8l engine had compression 8.5:1 as stock.
One year only, -74, with dual carbs. It was done with domed pistons (N/A now), no other differences AFAIK.
It had some problems with emissions in US so US-version had only 7.5:1 compression (with dished pistons) and fuel injection. |
Yes....and the US spec 412 engine....1.8L was a miserable hot running engine because of that. Between the L-jet and low compression....it ran hot and had less HP and throttle reaponse than the 1.7. However at one point in time I was able to set one up with flat tops and about 8.4:1 compression and it was night and day better. Ray |
I think a high compression 1.8 would be an interesting build. There is a guy in the upper pininsula who makes custom pistons for prototype/engine development and high performance racing. Maybe someday I will see if he would be willing to prototype a set of wedge top pistons for 93mm cylinders. I am imagining something similar to the 1600 Super vee type 4 engine pistons...wedge tops with pockets for valve clearance. You could easily push 9:1 or even 10:1 compression with that combo. How cool would it be to use the original 1600 intake manifolds and dual Solex 40pii carbs and a hot cam. It would be one big super vee engine. Probably no good for the street, but could make for a cool hill climb engine.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
| Those would be cool! As long as its done right....and ignition and exhaust are upgraded as well....the type 4 engine likes compression. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Camshaft differences |
|
|
They sure are cool pistons. The pic above is from a fellow Michigander who bought up a bunch of 1600 Type4 super vee parts. He got Several 87.5mm wedge top pistons and cylinders, Solex 40 pii-4 carbs and manifolds, distributor, etc...all stuff that was part of a 130-150hp engine back in the day. I wonder what those engines had for a camshaft... Hmmmm 
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
