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Juan
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: Ignition switch burned out |
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Converted my 64 to 12v a few weeks ago. Last Friday I turn the key as I'm leaving a restaurant. Car starts and then white smoke starts coming out of the ignition. I turn the car off and try again. I turn the key once to the position where the dash lights come on, without turning all the way right to turn on the car, yet the car fires up again and starts. Strange. I turn off, wait a bit, try again; car starts and more white smoke comes out of the ignition.
I have a replacement ignition switch but before I replace it, anything I should do to the car to avoid burning this new one out too?
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Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100
Last edited by Juan on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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123386
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2007
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| The exact same thing happened to me a few hours ago. Unfortunately I don't have replacement handy. |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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Inspect all your wiring out of the switch closely and if you have a meter check the wires for a dead short - 0 ohms resistance.
brad |
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kiwighia68
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
Inspect all your wiring out of the switch closely and if you have a meter check the wires for a dead short - 0 ohms resistance.
brad |
I tend to agree with you. I had to remove my ignition switch last weekend to replace it because the return spring was no longer working. The wires at the back of the switch (4, of which 3 are used) are very close to each other where they come out of the switch, and could easily come into contact with each other. Hence the smoke due to a shortcircuit.
It's a time consuming job to get to those wires, but do-able by a novice (like me). There is a good sticky about replacing the ignition switch - and I just followed the applicable steps there.
(Disconnect negative terminal on the battery. Remove steering wheel. Pull back turn signal mechanism. Undo screws to release ignition switch and pull the switch housing back. Inspect wires. Replace switch after pulling the wires off the terminals under the hood: 1 - red/black - to starter motor; 2 - red - to hazard switch; and 3 - black - to terminal 2 on the fuse block.)
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Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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Juan
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| slalombuggy wrote: |
Inspect all your wiring out of the switch closely and if you have a meter check the wires for a dead short - 0 ohms resistance.
brad |
I tend to agree with you. I had to remove my ignition switch last weekend to replace it because the return spring was no longer working. The wires at the back of the switch (4, of which 3 are used) are very close to each other where they come out of the switch, and could easily come into contact with each other. Hence the smoke due to a shortcircuit.
It's a time consuming job to get to those wires, but do-able by a novice (like me). There is a good sticky about replacing the ignition switch - and I just followed the applicable steps there.
(Disconnect negative terminal on the battery. Remove steering wheel. Pull back turn signal mechanism. Undo screws to release ignition switch and pull the switch housing back. Inspect wires. Replace switch after pulling the wires off the terminals under the hood: 1 - red/black - to starter motor; 2 - red - to hazard switch; and 3 - black - to terminal 2 on the fuse block.) |
Thanks for the response. Does this procedure apply to 64 or is it for later models where the ignition is located in a different place?
_________________
Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| Juan wrote: |
| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| slalombuggy wrote: |
Inspect all your wiring out of the switch closely and if you have a meter check the wires for a dead short - 0 ohms resistance.
brad |
I tend to agree with you. I had to remove my ignition switch last weekend to replace it because the return spring was no longer working. The wires at the back of the switch (4, of which 3 are used) are very close to each other where they come out of the switch, and could easily come into contact with each other. Hence the smoke due to a shortcircuit.
(Disconnect negative terminal on the battery. Remove steering wheel. Pull back turn signal mechanism. Undo screws to release ignition switch and pull the switch housing back. Inspect wires. Replace switch after pulling the wires off the terminals under the hood: 1 - red/black - to starter motor; 2 - red - to hazard switch; and 3 - black - to terminal 2 on the fuse block.) |
Thanks for the response. Does this procedure apply to 64 or is it for later models where the ignition is located in a different place? |
The procedure I described is for my '68 Ghia where the switch is on the steering column. On a '64 the switch will be in the dash. I should think the removal procedure will be different, but the replacement of the switch should be the same once you have the whole mechanism out of the dash.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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ernstben
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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I had the exact same thing happen in my Ghia. In my case, the contacts had fried within the switch and a new one wired the same as the old did the trick. I'd guess that the same happened to you? Here's a picture from the autopsy I performed:
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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I should have finished my post with:
If the wiring is in good shape and there are no shorts to ground, then the problem is probably in the switch itself.
Removing the 64 ignition is easy, just the wires on the back of the switch and a screw from underneath the dash that holds it in.
brad |
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Juan
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Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
I should have finished my post with:
If the wiring is in good shape and there are no shorts to ground, then the problem is probably in the switch itself.
Removing the 64 ignition is easy, just the wires on the back of the switch and a screw from underneath the dash that holds it in.
brad |
yeah, I was able to remove it easily. Wires seem to be in good shape. I'm tempted to install the replacement switch that I got this weekend but my friend who did the conversion to 12v says I should install a relay or will otherwise continue to burn through ignition switches. Any thoughts on that?
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Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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If the wiring is in good shape, a relay is not needed.
It sounds like your wiring guy is pretty handy so have him measure the voltage at the starter terminal of the switch and at the starter while the engine is cranking (disable the ignition by pulling the coil wire). If the voltages are within a volt or so, you're good to go. If there is a big drop I'd replace the wire rather than put in a relay.
But, usually the wires are corroded at the terminals so if there is enough length cut them back to clean wire and crimp on new connectors. You might have to re-route the wires a bit to make some slack.
brad |
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Juan
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Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
If the wiring is in good shape, a relay is not needed.
It sounds like your wiring guy is pretty handy so have him measure the voltage at the starter terminal of the switch and at the starter while the engine is cranking (disable the ignition by pulling the coil wire). If the voltages are within a volt or so, you're good to go. If there is a big drop I'd replace the wire rather than put in a relay.
But, usually the wires are corroded at the terminals so if there is enough length cut them back to clean wire and crimp on new connectors. You might have to re-route the wires a bit to make some slack.
brad |
great info thanks so much!
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Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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123386
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Joined: November 13, 2007
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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I ended up getting a replacement reproduction unit from a local VW parts shop. It has a different style mount and thus I would have to drill a new hole if I want to use it properly.
Here is what I assume is an original style switch.
The repro one. Shorter mount that's offset:
Also, the orientation of the keyhole is off. 
Last edited by 123386 on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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slalombuggy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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That new switch is probably for a different year of car. they changed the mounting holes a couple of times over the years. You should be able to find one that bolts right in.
brad |
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ernstben
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sputnick60
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Juan
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Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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So I was just about to try and install the replacement switch, and touched the speedo cable to get it out of the way and reach the ignition cables. Soon as I touched it, it seems to have to have rubbed the ignition cables and the motor started turning as if trying to start. I get that this is cause the battery was still connected (I disconnected it already) and the car made contact. But I was surprised that it happened by me barely moving the speedo cable and the cables rubbing. I wonder if there's a bigger problem than just the switch? Or is this normal?
_________________
Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch burned out |
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Time to start digging into your front harness. Make sure there's no open wires. IF there is you can re insulate them by getting lengths of heat shrink and putting it over the exposed wire. As long as the wire is not burnt you can still use it and this method saves from splicing in wires or running new ones. 4 foot lengths of it are available from electrical supply shops. not that you should heat shrink 4 feet of open wire, only a few of inches at most, but it's cheaper this way and you can get different sizes and colours.
brad |
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Juan
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch burned out |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
Time to start digging into your front harness. Make sure there's no open wires. IF there is you can re insulate them by getting lengths of heat shrink and putting it over the exposed wire. As long as the wire is not burnt you can still use it and this method saves from splicing in wires or running new ones. 4 foot lengths of it are available from electrical supply shops. not that you should heat shrink 4 feet of open wire, only a few of inches at most, but it's cheaper this way and you can get different sizes and colours.
brad |
Thanks for all your help brad, REALLY appreciated. Installed the replacement switch and a couple of things are off.
1. When I turn the key once (to where the dash lights come on), the dash lights only come on for a nanosecond before turning off.
2. When I turn all the way to the right to start the car, engine turns, car starts but does not stay on, as if losing spark. I even step on the gas to keep the engine going but nothing, car turns off.
Checked with my wiring guy over the phone to make sure I plugged all 3 cables right and it all seems to be in its place. Any idea what could be happening?
Not sure how much this will help but here goes a pic of the switch as it stands now.
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Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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Juan
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switch burned out |
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After much testing, we came to the conclusion that the replacement switch I got is toast and doesn't work properly. I ended up turning the car on by putting together the 15 and 30 cables and touching them with the 50. I'll make sure to tape them up well to be able to do the short driving I need to do tomorrow and go ahead and get a new switch 
_________________
Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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Juan
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2003
Posts: 878
Location: Miami, FL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition switched burned out |
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| ernstben wrote: |
I just swapped the guts out of a beetle-style (short mounting bracket) ignition into my Ghia housing. It wasn't all that difficult and I was able to retain the same key, housing, mounting holes and hardware, etc.
There's a really good walk through on the bottom of this page continuing onto the next one: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=20 |
Yep, thanks for this. Apparently the aftermarket switches available are the ones with the offset mount that would require drilling a new hole.
We're gonna attempt a rebuild by disassembling both the original switch and the replacement one I got, plus maybe some new parts. Gosh, what a pain in the ass for such a small part 
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Instagram: @juanskombi
1967 Velvet Green/Pearl White Kombi
1964 Pearl White Ghia Coupe
1969 BMW 2002
1959 Ford F100 |
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