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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| Glenn wrote: |
When the header doesn't allow stock tins....... Get a different header.
I have 1-5/8 headers and all stock tin with Type 126 shields. |
Your berg setup is very nice and does suit the engine, but some engines require shorter primary length.
Possibly the only daily driven bug with a tri-y header.....
heck no I'm not going to modify it so the stock tin fits.  |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
When the header doesn't allow stock tins....... Get a different header.
I have 1-5/8 headers and all stock tin with Type 126 shields. |
or you could spend 15 minutes with some tin snips and a hammer on a $5 set of cool tins instead of spending $600-2K on a performance header that can run heater boxes. |
Berg GB-933S 1-5/8" $225
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=448_2937
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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GTV
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| Glenn wrote: |
When the header doesn't allow stock tins....... Get a different header.
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Or simply trim the sled tins to fit the header.
Deleting the sled tins and their counterparts next to 2 & 4 makes the rest of the tin fit loosely, aka: like shit. They really do tie the room together.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| GTV wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
When the header doesn't allow stock tins....... Get a different header.
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Or simply trim the sled tins to fit the header. |
So then no thermostat. 
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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GTV
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| GTV wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
When the header doesn't allow stock tins....... Get a different header.
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Or simply trim the sled tins to fit the header. |
So then no thermostat. |
Well, yeah. I agree that your solution is by far the best, but the people that run a thermostat in this hobby are the minority. Let's say this year we will get them to swap out their cylinder deflectors, next year we'll work on the thermostat. Don't want to rush them 
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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How about instead of calling people dumasses and idiots we let people do what they want on their own vehicles that they buy parts with using their own money and we can all stop being a bunch of condescending pr!#$s. I personally know of engines that have run these tins on them in daily drivers for 20+ years so it can't have that much of an adverse affect can it?
If someone wants to step up and buy me an $800 1 7/8" header and pay the freight to a foreign country to run on my car so I can run sled tins that would be great. Until then I'll run tins that help get the air around as much of the cylinder as possible. It's a work around on an engine that can't fit factory tins, runs wide open most of the time and is out in the open so trying to get uniform cooling all around the cylinder is a challenge.
brad |
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mr. lang
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
How about instead of calling people dumasses and idiots we let people do what they want on their own vehicles that they buy parts with using their own money and we can all stop being a bunch of condescending pr!#$s. I personally know of engines that have run these tins on them in daily drivers for 20+ years so it can't have that much of an adverse affect can it?
If someone wants to step up and buy me an $800 1 7/8" header and pay the freight to a foreign country to run on my car so I can run sled tins that would be great. Until then I'll run tins that help get the air around as much of the cylinder as possible. It's a work around on an engine that can't fit factory tins, runs wide open most of the time and is out in the open so trying to get uniform cooling all around the cylinder is a challenge.
brad |
Just as long as people are making informed decisions.
The problem is that vendors have been pushing Super Cool Tins for so many years, they the masses just accept it as gospel.
Hey, this is America and there are way more people doing stupid stuff everyday than it's possible to help.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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pyrOman
Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 12408
Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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Like many before and after me, I bought into the "cool tin" idea when I knew no better. Used the for a while but as mentioned, fitment was always an issue and unlike has NOT been mentioned, at least for me there were 2 issues that made me give up on them. One was the "collection" of dirt and grime inside them (didn't think of flattening them darn tabs). The second was more common sense, as in protection for the push rod tubes! Not only the sleds create the correct flow of air but they also protect the tubes from possible damage from road debris. I will try to remember to post a picture of a sled which I currently use that has a dent on it. Just saying. 
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26320
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector |
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I know, off topic, but I thank you, I've asked about this before once or twice and nothing came of it, but I figured it might pop out of the shadows if I kept trying.
I find it interesting, in that it doesn't damn the paper gaskets nearly as much as I expected. Basically, it says from early model year 74 they are deleted but to use them on all previous engines. I sort of expected it to be from later on (actually, there may very well be one for all I know)
I just went and dug into all the various parts books that VW has archived online at their Classic Parts site - German language microfiche scans for the most part - and all the post-74 Type 1 books (four of them, 1200/1300 to Jan 78, 1302/1303 to Jan 80, Mexico 1978-85 and Mexico 1986-99) show the part number but with an "X" for quantity with no explanation, dates, chassis or engine numbers, kind of unusual for the factory parts book actually. I guess Sept 1973 would be the date then...
Of course, some of those books also show compression shim part numbers for both ends of the cylinder.
Thanks for putting it up again. I've not seen the M series Tech Bulletins, the K series used to be up online several years ago, and I don't recall seeing this, but since it was in German I might not have spotted it. I only saved to my computer the pages dealing with stock single carburetors, then they all disappeared from the cloud.
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Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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tecnica
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2014
Posts: 7
Location: São Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector |
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| Joel wrote: |
I'm surprised no one posted this.
If Volkswagen themselves say its a bad idea you probably should listen.
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Well, VW of Brazil apparently did not listen themself....because here all T1 and T2 engines were equipped with these "cool tins" since 1984.
In 1984, the VW of Brazil kept only the 1600 engine, with several improvements, called "tork engine" by the market. These modifications are:
- Reduction of the fins in the cilinder heads from 8 to 6. Now they have more material in the combustion chamber, the spark plugs threads are longer (before BP5HS now BP5ES)
- Added 2 fins in the cilinders
- Oil cooler moved to a doghouse, now the #3 runs cool
- Added a thermostat to control flaps in the fan housing
- Use of the "cool tins"
- Exhaust valves reduced from 32 to 30mm
- New camshaft
This configuration was produced until 2005, using a multipoint bosch fuel injection ecu
The new heads:
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| I think a lot of things VW of Brazil did to the VW engines was just the opposite of what hotrodders or the Germans would want, but perhaps these changes were what THEY needed. I can't judge that. I am glad they kept the engine for so long, but it seems strange to me that they made very few changes to the design in so long! |
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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Aren't those heads meant to run high compression on some ethanol mix?
That would explain the fin reduction.
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tecnica
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2014
Posts: 7
Location: São Paulo - Brazil
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| modok wrote: |
| I think a lot of things VW of Brazil did to the VW engines was just the opposite of what hotrodders or the Germans would want, but perhaps these changes were what THEY needed. I can't judge that. I am glad they kept the engine for so long, but it seems strange to me that they made very few changes to the design in so long! |
The automotive market here is very complicated. For a long time, the life cycle of the engines and cars models was too long. VW built a confortable reputation of reliability....rsrs, we call "ism" here: VWism, Hondism (of the market of motorcycles), Samsungism (electronics)...and so on. There was no reason for big improvments, no emission laws, neither safety laws to force the evolution.
Back to the T1 engine, theese modifications was well studied by the tuners and hotrodders here. "CHT'ing" the headers shows that the warmup time was speed up, the heads run a little hotter than the 8 fins models under low loads and iddle, but little cooler under high loads.
| Boolean wrote: |
Aren't those heads meant to run high compression on some ethanol mix?
That would explain the fin reduction. |
I think that main reason is keep the head temperature under a narrow band, although hotter in general use. Curiously, those 6 fins heads arrives in machine shops with low ocurrence of cracking. I believe that most of you knows that the bus was produced where until 2013, and util 2005 with the air cooled engine.
Much of theese buses were adapted to use natural gas, in most cases with low quality kits and poor job, and runs in severe use for years. When arrive the time of rebuilting, normaly the crankcase is much more damaged than the cylinders and heads, and the engine in most cases almost does not smoke. Valve guides and exhaust valve are very worn, the valves springs very weak, but low crack between valve seats. Opposite side, the bearings is very damaged, requiring new big oversized bearing due a hard lineboring.
Recently I rebuilt one of these engines, it came from a bus bought by a junkyard in a auction. The heads was only cleaned, changed the valve guides, machined in the seats, and received new valves and springs. The cylinders should go to trash, but 2 of them was donated to another unlucky bus engine (that was smoking). The crankcase, however, was linebored to 0.5mm/0.5mm oversize, and already have a steel jacket in #1, that was kept .
Boolean, the "6 fins" compression ratios where the same of the 8´s: 7.5 for gasoline, and 10:1 for ethanol ones.
The ethanol in these engines is a very cool thing, transform them in a little devil. You should experiment it.  |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
How about instead of calling people dumasses and idiots we let people do what they want on their own vehicles that they buy parts with using their own money and we can all stop being a bunch of condescending pr!#$s. I personally know of engines that have run these tins on them in daily drivers for 20+ years so it can't have that much of an adverse affect can it?
If someone wants to step up and buy me an $800 1 7/8" header and pay the freight to a foreign country to run on my car so I can run sled tins that would be great. Until then I'll run tins that help get the air around as much of the cylinder as possible. It's a work around on an engine that can't fit factory tins, runs wide open most of the time and is out in the open so trying to get uniform cooling all around the cylinder is a challenge.
brad |
bingo, dingo,ditto. not all people have the $ for some things and not all the people have the brains if they choose a part that requires a tiny amount of mods that would probably make the entire system work better....and some are just stupid, there I said it.it may not be thier fault.. and thats ok.. as far as imformed dissions....informed by whoo??? you? RC? morlock? me? or just the gods of the internet? Ive been informed that I cant spell.....but I dosent beleave it.and my grammer is bad..well she has been dead now for 10 years. as for the tropickil cooling tins...thats the only ones I will use Im my personal vw,s. and recommend them for any I build. but unlike ugly you cant fix stupid. witch also go's for everything else related to vw's.....and thier owners  no not to mean there all either ugly or stupid, just one cant be fixed. you can try, but...it wont be a complete success. so in the end do all the research you can and see what parts you want, need, have, and make a "informed" dission witch way to go and if you have to do some triming or modifying do a little at a time ask questions, and think about what you are doing and what it will cause or affect. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| Ive been informed that I cant spell.....but I dosent beleave it.and my grammer is bad..well she has been dead now for 10 years. as for the tropickil cooling tins...thats the only ones I will use Im my personal vw,s. and recommend them for any I build. but unlike ugly you cant fix stupid. |
Oh come on Mark, I won't give up on you. There's always hope.
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Glenn
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mark tucker
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| I realy dont think i look all that bad glenn so dont worry. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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I used to think the 6 fins was for ethanol too, but I was wrong.
They have different pistons for gas and alky. Big dish in piston for the lower CR gas. I still have not seen one of these pistons. If you see one take a picture for us 
Remember a lot of the VW engines in the 80's were going towards a "May fireball" chamber design, with more and more combustion space being in the piston dish and less in the head. Certainly could make the piston run a little hotter and the head a little cooler. |
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maggiolo72
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Joined: April 24, 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Basel (CH)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:11 am Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| Here they put the supercool on the aircraft engine..... |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76937
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Tropical Cylinder Air Deflector aka Super Cool tins |
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| maggiolo72 wrote: |
| Here they put the supercool on the aircraft engine..... |
Are they using Type 1 fan shrouds? Or is the cooling air coming from the front of the aircraft?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Technisches Merkblatt M-112 September 1973 (sorry, in german only and sorry for being off-topic)
