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AS350driver
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2016
Posts: 1340
Location: Tucson
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 Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| Looks like all you need is a front floorboard and some patching in the cargo floor. You could even get by with just buying the outer patch panels on the front. Chiseling out the entire front floorboard turns into quite a chore around the parking brake /shifter area. No sense cutting out good OG metal. |
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ernstben
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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I continued with some deconstruction over the past week or so. The engine and fuel tank came out easily. The engine is a 1500 (edit: apparently a bug/kg 1200):
The battery area on both the right and left aren't too crusty (dirty though!):
I took a wire wheel to several sections where there were angry-looking bubbles in the paint, but was pretty happy to find the rust fairly contained:
The windshield area though... yikes:
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project
Last edited by ernstben on Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BarryL 
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| ernstben wrote: |
The engine is a 1500:
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Can you post a picture of the side where the intake enters a head. There are things like the diameter of the intake and distance to heat riser pipe on the rear tin that suggest 40 horse. The engine looks not so bad in appearance. |
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ernstben
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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I took a picture of where the intake enters the left side head. I also have one of the engine number, although it's hard to make out.
Now that you said something, could this be a bug 1200 engine? I was just going off the first couple numbers I could read. The exhaust looks like it is a converted bug unit. Let me do some more cleaning and see if I can't unearth some more engine numbers, it seems like some might be missing.
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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40 HP 1200 Beetle or Bus or KG engine.
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| 40 HP 1200 Beetle or Bus or KG engine. |
It looks pretty unmolested. Is one of the muffler (tailpipe) holes unopened? If so, that would be correct. It looks bus to me with the air cleaner bracket, the correct rear tin, especially the oil fill looks bus. You got a nice carb and rare fuel pump too. Good 6 volt pulley on correct generator. |
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ernstben
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| 40 HP 1200 Beetle or Bus or KG engine. |
It looks pretty unmolested. Is one of the muffler (tailpipe) holes unopened? If so, that would be correct. It looks bus to me with the air cleaner bracket, the correct rear tin, especially the oil fill looks bus. You got a nice carb and rare fuel pump too. Good 6 volt pulley on correct generator. |
The passenger side tailpipe hole is closed, although it definitely doesn't look factory. The welds that close the opening up are pretty sloppy.
So... it is most definitely not the correct engine for the bus (it should be a bastard 40hp right?). What'ya all think? The original owner thinks that it may have suffered some sort of catastrophic failure decades ago which led to its retirement. Worth taking apart and restoring? Go for more power with a 1600 and upgraded trans?
I'm still fairly uncertain what my best route forward should be with this one. Appreciate the input! 
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project |
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mandraks
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004
Posts: 7047
Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| ernstben wrote: |
So... it is most definitely not the correct engine for the bus (it should be a bastard 40hp right?). What'ya all think? The original owner thinks that it may have suffered some sort of catastrophic failure decades ago which led to its retirement. Worth taking apart and restoring? Go for more power with a 1600 and upgraded trans?
I'm still fairly uncertain what my best route forward should be with this one. Appreciate the input! |
all depends on what you plan to do with it. I myself love the 40horse motors, they run great, they are durable, good on gas. for a panel it is just fine.
If you plan on traveling large distances, plan on going 70mph, build a full on camper.... then you likely want a bigger motor, and also a transmission with taller gears.
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regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| It looks bus to me with the air cleaner bracket, the correct rear tin, especially the oil fill looks bus. |
Air cleaner bracket was used on KG also.
Oil fill was not a bus only item. True the bus got the 40 HP gen stand and oil filler first in MAY59, but after AUG60 the type 1s got the same.
Rear tin was also used on the type 1s.
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| ...especially the oil fill looks bus. |
oil filler first in MAY59, but after AUG60 the type 1s got the same. |
But I thought only bus got the large oval ones and Beetle etc got the more teardrop one. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| But I thought only bus got the large oval ones and Beetle etc got the more teardrop one. |
Dug up this info about the oil filler and breather assy. from the dealer parts manuals and Progressive Refinements just for fun.
Bus parts manual:
211 115 451 A from Engine No. 3 400 000 (JUNE1960) up to 5 870 190 (8JUNE1961) (and) from Engine No. 8 785 398 (AUG1964) up to 1 100 000
211 115 451 from Engine No. 5 870 191 (8JUNE1961) up to 8 785 397 (AUG1964)
Beetle parts manual:
211 115 451 A from Engine No. 5 000 001 (AUG1960) up to 5 703 137 (11APR1961) (and) from Engine No. 8 046 097 (1OCT1963)
211 115 451 from Engine No. 5 703 138 (11APR1961) (PR "Now with hose from filler to air cleaner") up to 8 046 096 (1OCT1963) (PR Now condensation pipe with rubber valve).
111 115 451 B from Engine No. 3 942 539 (MIDAUG1960), (which I think was later 36 HP engine production for standard beetle).
So that last one (111 115 451 B) looks for now used on type 1, 36 HP only, but as you can see the 211 115 451 and "A" variant where used on both type 1 and 2s for 40 HP engines after AUG 1960.
Added problem is also the engine in question is over 50 years old and any part could have been replaced over all those years.
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ernstben
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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Thanks for the info guys! I think I'll tear the engine down this winter and see if it's in reasonable shape for a rebuild. I had a 40hp in a bug back in the day that I loved.
At the moment, though, I haven't so much as wiped the grease off of the engine yet as I'm mainly focused at the moment on breaking things down to see what I'm working with. So... a couple questions then, to that end:
First, I'm having a hard time IDing my Hehr camper windows. The are rounded edged and do not fit the contour of the side at all. Now that I've removed them, whoever installed the windows bent the crap outta the sides of the body to make a makeshift flange for them to rest against. Is it possible that these are meant for a bus with stock window holes?
Second question: the interior mirror the bus came with mounts to the fresh air box with three screws. There isn't a single other hole between the windshields. It can't be a stock piece can it? Were there buses without interior mirrors?
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project |
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joe56vw
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2004
Posts: 3202
Location: Olympia wa
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| ernstben wrote: |
Second question: the interior mirror the bus came with mounts to the fresh air box with three screws. There isn't a single other hole between the windshields. It can't be a stock piece can it? Were there buses without interior mirrors?
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I think for panels/commercial buses the inside mirror was dealer installed
I've owned several panels over the years and none of them had factory screw holes for the inside mirror
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'60 15 window walkthrough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559931&highlight=
why is there no sarcasism button on here? |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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No interior mirror for panels from factory. So either dealer after market item or DPO "let's yank this mirror off this wreck and screw it in place".
Window does look like for factory bus opening. If not savable, then at least parts to fix another window.
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BarryL
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
| But I thought only bus got the large oval ones and Beetle etc got the more teardrop one. |
Added problem is also the engine in question is over 50 years old and any part could have been replaced over all those years. |
The one on that engine is 113 115 451 B so obviously added as it came into fruition with the 44 bhp engines. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| BarryL wrote: |
The one on that engine is 113 115 451 B so obviously added as it came into fruition with the 44 bhp engines. |
Are you sure? The one in question does not have the later reinforcement ribs as this one from the 1964 bus owner's manual.
1967 bus owner manual showing different photo of ribbed gen stand.
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Last edited by Eric&Barb on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ernstben
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Joined: April 30, 2005
Posts: 621
Location: Manchester, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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Well at this point, I'm lost.
Could I get either of you a better picture of something on the engine to give you more information? 
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Ben
'63 Ghia Coupe Project
'59 Panel Project
'56 Ragtop Project |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| ernstben wrote: |
Well at this point, I'm lost.
Could I get either of you a better picture of something on the engine to give you more information? |
As before, there has been 50 years of changes on the engine. Heck even the gen stand and oil filler could have been switched from each other. Best you can do is to figure out week/month/year, and maybe even day of engine case was produced as a whole engine. Main thing is it was a 40 HP engine. You will only know if it is still a 1200 when you remove a head to measure pistons and crank stroke.
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BarryL
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14258
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| BarryL wrote: |
The one on that engine is 113 115 451 B so obviously added as it came into fruition with the 44 bhp engines. |
Are you sure? The one in question does not have the later reinforcement ribs as this one from the 1964 bus owner's manual. |
I'm referring to the oil fill. The later bus ones were oval shaped and had more volume than the teardrop ones. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24735
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Ben's '59 Panel Project |
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| BarryL wrote: |
I'm referring to the oil fill. The later bus ones were oval shaped and had more volume than the teardrop ones. |
OK, then having earlier 40 HP gen stand with later 1500 oil filler shows it is a mix of parts that would not be a factory combination in itself.
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