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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:52 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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I was thinking about this environmental foot print thing, ok maybe I think too much and should just shut up and do as I'm told!
Back in the 70's pollution became front and center, legislators and car companies "fixed" the problem by monitoring a couple of small components measured in parts per million and gave us the "smog control" fix. Cars that burned way more fuel and put out less power doing it.
Guess what - 30 years later the problem is still with us. Did we fix it? Apparently not! So now what do they do? Same thing exactly but with diesels.
Perhaps we are slow learners?
I'm not so sure that electric is the answer either. What about the environmental footprint of the power generation stations? Are we just shifting the pollution to a different industry? What about the mining, manufacturing and disposal of lithium based batteries?
About those batteries and their tendency to spontaneously combust. You can't transport them by air, trucking companies don't like to haul them and you can't mail them. So - we strap them on our butts and go play chicken in rush hour traffic?
Hmmm...
Will routine first responders be dressed in haz - matt suits and spray the scene down with fire represent foam? Will accident recovery be in the burn unit? |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| oprn wrote: |
I was thinking about this environmental foot print thing, ok maybe I think too much and should just shut up and do as I'm told!
Back in the 70's pollution became front and center, legislators and car companies "fixed" the problem by monitoring a couple of small components measured in parts per million and gave us the "smog control" fix. Cars that burned way more fuel and put out less power doing it.
Guess what - 30 years later the problem is still with us. Did we fix it? Apparently not! So now what do they do? Same thing exactly but with diesels.
Perhaps we are slow learners?
I'm not so sure that electric is the answer either. What about the environmental footprint of the power generation stations? Are we just shifting the pollution to a different industry? YES
What about the mining, manufacturing and disposal of lithium based batteries(shhh, don't mention strip mines or toxic waste disposal after lithium batts are beyond re-usable)
About those batteries and their tendency to spontaneously combust. You can't transport them by air, trucking companies don't like to haul them and you can't mail them. So - we strap them on our butts and go play chicken in rush hour traffic? Hmmm...
Will routine first responders be dressed in haz - matt suits and spray the scene down with fire represent foam? Will accident recovery be in the burn unit?]First responders are already trained to recognize and handle Hybrid cars around here, and yes sir, those suckers put on one hell of a show when they start popping off cells.
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There's always a down side. Regional power generation is simply going to vary based on what is actually feasible based on climate and geography. Nuclear, wind and hydroelectric all have their subsets of environmental activists fighting them. the country has huge natural gas reserves to the point that they simply burn it off as waste when fracking. Nuclear, we all know what that danger is. Hydro electric is dependent on water flow but also destroy the ecosystems where they exist. Wind farms are a danger to birds and actually noisy as hell when you are near them. They are also an eyesore spoiling the views of open prarie, mountain tops and the desert.
I think it was brought up already, but graphene super capacitors seem to be the next step, but how long before they are commercially viable and affordable?
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.) |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| oprn wrote: |
Guess what - 30 years later the problem is still with us. Did we fix it? Apparently not!
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No matter how we got here, the air is much better than it was in the late 70's. I lived in Tokyo in '78 and it was grey most sunny days with a black film on a freshly washed car by the end of the day.
It's better. It was a difficult task in the beginning [as an auto mechanic trying to fix those experiments back then] but the emissions are much better.
@TDCTDI, As for trucks and car emissions, yes, they are different. Blame that on the farming/trucking lobbyist.
If we are talking about the size of the engine vs the amount of emissions, I'm ok with that, but when you are backed into a corner, then you change your argument to emissions specs on cars and trucks.
We have the choice to drive whatever we want to buy. Some pollute more than others. It's not against the law and should never be. When you enforce a law that says you cannot make any power, you're going to effect someones livelihood. So the big truck that you despise going to the grocery store running over the small VW Golfs out there, could be outlawed, but then what would you do to the farm person that needs to move their product or go to work? |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Butcher wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
Will someone please explain to me how a car that gets 60mpg produces more exhaust emissions than the diesel guzzling 12mpg American pick up trucks that are still legal to sell?
Ya I know it's all about NOX but that is only one tiny component of the TOTAL emissions. Why do they never talk about total emissions? American diesels use 5 times the amount of fuel so they HAVE to put out 5 times the total emissions.
Can't anyone see that?
Or are we all complete idiots and swallow any kind of official BS? |
Yeah, we can see that, but until the tiny VW Golf can tow a fifth wheel or a ton of product, I do not see your point. I could not even imagine what it would be like for a 1.9TDI to attempt to move an unloaded semi truck. So what's your point?
So, maybe the idiot label should be applied to a person who does not make common sense. |
But that logic goes out the window when a majority of those trucks are used for nothing more than commuting, getting groceries, & dropping the rugrats off at practice. You should see the jackasses around here with lifted diesel duallies tiptoeing around potholes. My Passat has been worked harder with a tow dolly & a 5'x10' trailer than 90% of the local "trucks" & I still got 43MPG. |
My logic is sound. Your logic is blaming the truck for the ills of the driver. We live in America, with all of it's faults, we allow people to do whatever they want. It's called freedom.
Should we ban the truck because the driver is not 'Green' enough for you? I think not. If we did, then we should all be on bicycles and then a lowly VW TDI would be the dirty one that you would be bitching about.
You're right that a truck has more emissions than a VW, but so what? It's a poor comparison to make a your point. |
BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING to diesel powered passenger cars by enacting virtually impossible to satisfy emissions regulations. They are essentially banning diesel passenger cars because the CAR is not green enough. The trucks don't have to meet anywhere near the same regulations as passenger car diesels, yet there are tens of thousands more diesel trucks than automobiles on the road in this country emitting far more toxic emissions, virtually totally unregulated.
Your idea of doing what ever I want and the government's idea of doing what ever I want is light years apart. Hell I got popped making homebrew biodiesel because I was distilling my own ethanol and damn near ended up on federal charges like I was making moonshine. Thank god everything I had on hand had been mixed already but they confiscated my still.
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.) |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Why do you think that none of the other foreign automotive manufacturers have brought in their diesels? |
Actually some do, for now anyway. Mercedes still brings their bluetech diesels, though they ceased the C class diesel model, and BMW still sells the 3 series and x3 and x5 diesels. Porsche actually has 1500 Cayenne TDi's that are going to be modified for compliance and sold apparently. unfortunately none of them are in the lower priced range of the golf, Jetta and Passat TDi's.
I just finalized my purchase of a 2015 BMW 328D x-drive wagon but it's being shipped. I should have it Monday. I wasn't willing to pay $52K on a new one.
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.) |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:36 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| HeidelbergJohn4.0 wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Why do you think that none of the other foreign automotive manufacturers have brought in their diesels? |
Actually some do, for now anyway. Mercedes still brings their bluetech diesels, though they ceased the C class diesel model, and BMW still sells the 3 series and x3 and x5 diesels. Porsche actually has 1500 Cayenne TDi's that are going to be modified for compliance and sold apparently. unfortunately none of them are in the lower priced range of the golf, Jetta and Passat TDi's.
I just finalized my purchase of a 2015 BMW 328D x-drive wagon but it's being shipped. I should have it Monday. I wasn't willing to pay $52K on a new one. |
Yes, I knew I would get called on that after I submitted it. I was referring to all the not quite luxury car manufacturers that have diesels in other countries like Honda, Toyota, Subaru, & even smart cars.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:54 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| Butcher wrote: |
If we are talking about the size of the engine vs the amount of emissions, I'm ok with that, but when you are backed into a corner, then you change your argument to emissions specs on cars and trucks.
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It's the same point. The trucks & SUVs use more fuel & emit more emissions due to their size (read wind resistance), weight, displacement, & fewer regulatory restrictions.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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Smokey Yunick once wrote that there would not be an oil shortage if everyone drove a small displacement (1 liter or less) turbo-diesel vehicle. (Where that was written, I have no idea now)
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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| Back to top |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
Guess what - 30 years later the problem is still with us. Did we fix it? Apparently not!
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No matter how we got here, the air is much better than it was in the late 70's. I lived in Tokyo in '78 and it was grey most sunny days with a black film on a freshly washed car by the end of the day.
It's better. It was a difficult task in the beginning [as an auto mechanic trying to fix those experiments back then] but the emissions are much better.
@TDCTDI, As for trucks and car emissions, yes, they are different. Blame that on the farming/trucking lobbyist.
If we are talking about the size of the engine vs the amount of emissions, I'm ok with that, but when you are backed into a corner, then you change your argument to emissions specs on cars and trucks.
We have the choice to drive whatever we want to buy. Some pollute more than others. It's not against the law and should never be. When you enforce a law that says you cannot make any power, you're going to effect someones livelihood. So the big truck that you despise going to the grocery store running over the small VW Golfs out there, could be outlawed, but then what would you do to the farm person that needs to move their product or go to work? |
I will certainly agree that the air is markedly cleaner than in the 70's, however cleaning up industrial pollution from power plants, and heavy industries played a HUGE part in that clean up. My dad grew up in Marcus Hook PA and to this day cannot smell thanks to living 5 blocks from a chemical plant and an oil refinery. The sky literally looked like the pictures on TV of the forest fires in Tennessee yesterday. Bright orange and smoky almost 24-7. If you had a car you wanted painted, you just went to the shop and they sent the bill to Sun Oil labeled as damage from acid rain and industrial pollution. Cars are to the point, even diesels, that the only cleaner they can practically be is zero emission, but this is simply vengeance for skirting regulations and little to do with the actual potential damage some of the TDI's were capable of. The whole 40X thing was actually largely the non ad blue cars.
As for the farm trucks and work trucks, they would rather you buy a far less fuel efficient gasoline motor in pickups. another thing that isn't fair to passenger car diesels is the fuel taxes. The cost of diesel is higher because We pay the higher road taxes levied on OTR trucks. one of my best friends owns a fuel company and his wholesale price on diesel and no2 HHO is less than the regular unleaded/10% ethanol fuel that is mandated here and has been for as long as I've been running a diesel.
I paid $2.02/gal for diesel. 87 was $2.10/gal
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.) |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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Lots of good points here!
A year ago we spent 3 weeks in and around Buenos Aries, a city of 14 million people and it has the cleanest air of any big city I have ever been in. Far cleaner that the two cities closest to us that are just under 1 million people.
Here are some personal observations that I feel contribute to this clean air.
Large cars are rare, a Jetta(Bora there) is considered a large luxury car.
Small diesels abound in all makes and descriptions, possibly up to 50% of the cars and trucks.
Virtually no SUVs and 4x4 trucks are very rare.
Automatic transmissions are also extremely rare as are fully loaded cars.
Pick ups are of the Ford Ranger and Chev S10 size(lots of other makes too including VW TDI pick ups!)and are all diesel as far as I could tell.
The second most popular choose of fuel is natural gas. That makes up the majority of the rest of the vehicles on the road and most older American cars and trucks are converted. There are Natural gas filling stations EVERYWHERE!!
Few families have more than one vehicle. Car usage is carefully planed and cars are not used frivolously. Economic reasons.
Public transportation is totally amazing and taxis are very popular. There are over 14,000 taxis in the city proper.
Small motorcycles are very common and driven by all ages, classes and genders from grandmothers on down.
These people are light years ahead of us in efficient transportation!
Sad to say but my impression is that this change has been brought about by economic hardship not legislation. It wasn't always this way as 30+ years ago Argentina had the highest standard of living in the world!
The only way to decrease total emissions in my opinion is to decrease consumption of fuel. And after being down there I am also convinced it will never happen here as long as we continue to enjoy the wealth that we do!
We live in a "As long as it doesn't effect me" society. |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:09 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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far less industrial air pollution,
_________________
71 LWB Manx style dunebuggy
71 Beetle
71 Volksrod
Machette Speedster
2012 Passat TDI SE (sadly sitting in a buyback parking lot somewhere waiting for it's heart to be ripped out.) |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:28 am Post subject: Re: "It's over: Volkswagen will never sell another diesel in US" |
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| HeidelbergJohn4.0 wrote: |
| far less industrial air pollution, |
Possible, I can't confirm or deny that. They do have a fully functioning economy so industry is present.
I can tell you though that the waste produced in general by their society is a fraction of what we are used to. And that is reflected in their vehicle choices. |
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