Starter Button Wiring Problem...Help!!

[vamram]

I bought a '74 Super back in September and have slowly been fixing all of the items neglected by the PO-ners. One item I was going to leave as-is is the push button starter that was installed. It requires the key in the ignition and turned to the running position, then the button is pushed. You can see the button in this picture, to the left of the dash fan button:

A black and yellow wire pair that look to be about 12-14 gauge run from the starter button down under the rug along the tunnel and back to the battery area. You can see them here:

I think I may have messed up the wiring on the battery side and could use some help figuring this out.

Here's what it looked like at the battery terminal - the fat yellow wire at the positive terminal and the black one come from the push button in the dash.
The black wire was bound together w/the thin green one.

The thin green one splits 3-ways: one leg runs to the pearl-colored button you can see near the bottom of the above picture; the 2nd leg runs from the other end of the button to the positive terminal on the battery; and the 3rd length went to the same connector on the starter solenoid as the positive cable of the battery. Here's a pre-disassembly picture.

My problem is that when I disconnected everything I lost track of the green/black connection and I removed the thin green wire and button and threw it and the 3 segments away!! Now I don't know what to do and am not about to connect the black wire to the positive terminal w/out knowing what the green pieces and button were for.

Any electrical assistance would be really appreciated...! Ashman..?

Thanks!

Victor
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'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
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Save the Supers!!

[rockerarm]

Hi. folks have done similar mods like this for decades, especially kit cars/buggies/etc.
The big issue at hand for you is this starter circuit is probably not fused and if wired stupid with no care to protect the circuit, the chance for a problem is elevated. Folks also did this when the oem electrical section of the ignition switch was suspect.
At a minimum, I would keep the batt ground cable loose in the event a short occurs. And at a minimum I would install a 30-40 amp relay under the rear seat, left side for this starter circuit. This way, I would have my heavier 10-12ga wires in the back there and have that push-button switch ground the starter relay. It's a very simple mod.
That positive batt cable with the temp clamp is a common issue on many cars and it results in a voltage drop/loss there. Are your other negative cables is good condition.
You're going to hear a few ways to remedy this. Hear it all out and decide on a resolution.
Hope this helps, Bill.

[ashman40]

I can't see it but was that ivory/pearl colored thing near the battery a switch? If so, the PO installed TWO starter switches. One in the dash and a second at the battery. Pushing EITHER switch would send 12v from the battery (+) to the starter solenoid #50 terminal to crank the engine.

Here is my suggestion:
Test that the black and yellow wires are specifically for the starter.
With the yellow wire connected to the battery (+) terminal, place a voltmeter on the end of the black wire and check that there is 12v+ on the black wire when you press the dash button and no voltage when you let go. This confirms you are working with the correct wires.

Run a new heavier gauge wire from the end of the black wire near the battery to the #50 terminal of the starter solenoid.
I notice there is already a thick black wire at the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid. Where does this black wire come from. It is a MUCH better wire to use for #50 (The green wire is much too small for my tastes.) If the black wire is not being used for something else, re-purpose it. You can also look to see if the original red wire in a grey sleeve is still in place. It was a good thick gauge as well.
You should now have a heavy gauge wire running from the battery; to the switch in the dash; back to the starter #50 terminal. Add a 15A fuse at the battery end and you are done.


HSR Option- Add a Hard Start Relay (HSR) there near the battery. These are cheap and will reduce the current passing thru the yellow wire and the black wire. This should prolong the life of your starter switch. It will also benefit your starter too as the solenoid will get max current from the battery to the #50 terminal. Wire the HSR as follows:

Yellow wire connected to the battery (+) terminal (add a 1A fuse for protection).
#30 = battery (+) terminal (add a 15A fuse here to be safe)
#85 = black wire from the push button
#86 = ground
#87 = starter solenoid #50 terminal

Another way to wire the HSR and only use ONE of the wires:

#30 & #85 = battery (+) terminal
#86 = yellow wire from the push button
#87 = starter solenoid #50 terminal
Additionally, use a short length of wire at the dash to ground the unused wire (eg. black) at the push button end.

Using this method your are grounding the HSR when you push the starter button. This will trigger the HSR which will connect the battery terminal directly to the #50 terminal to energize the starter.
You can use the remaining black wire running under the carpet for something else.

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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[vamram]

Rocker, Ashman - thanks for the suggestions.

[Eric&Barb]

Get yourself a new battery positive cable. Wolfsburg West makes ones just like the factory. You want a battery cable that battery acid can not get between the cable end and the battery clamp, like you have now. OG battery cables are soldered to the clamp making a gas tight connection acid can not get into, and the clamp from the factory was made of brass which will long outlast a FLAPS clamp made of lead.
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[vamram]

[vamram]

Interesting development.

I connected the battery w/the yellow wire attached to the positive terminal. Left the black wire loose. Turned the ignition and boom - the key actually turns the starter w/the black wire disconnected!! But the car won't start. It may be out of gas. I was really low, almost on fumes when I parked it at the end of September, and I couldn't smell any gas in the engine compartment just now to suggest flooding w/out a spark.

The black wire has 12.3v when I have the key in the On position and press the button, so it's still pulling juice. It must have been some sort of short circuit for part of the ignition switch's functions..? Insight...?

I think the battery's on the way out, though. After charging it since last night, it read 12.99-13.0v off the charger, and was down to 12.39 on the car after turning the car over about 1/2 dozen tries.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

[ashman40]

[vamram]

[ashman40]

[vamram]

[vamram]

[rockerarm]

Hi. Good job. I also have a HSR under the rear seat, left side. A totally doable upgrade on any "not so perfect" car. To vamran, follow what ashman40 writes about, as he has shared his experience with some wiring projects. A look at his gallery pics will support this.
Regarding fuses for this new circuit, don't rely on the basic "take apart" fuse commonly used for radios, back-up lights, rear window defogger, as they are all low current circuits. Look for a fuse, or even a circuit breaker that is in the 30-40 amp range.
Hope this helps, Bill.

[vamram]

[rockerarm]

Hi. Two things here and I hope ashman40 will concur with this.

1- Install your circuit protector (fuse or circuit breaker) as close to the voltage source (battery) as physically possible. For example, if your fuse is 2 feet away from the battery then that 2 feet of 10 or 12ga wire is not protected. I would guess 3 to 4 inches would be ok for the position of the battery's positive cable.

2- An electrical component, such as a fan motor, will run on a set level of amps. But, the initial start-up of that fan motor will be more than the running amps. Make sense? Look at this pdf that I saw when I googled "amps required to engage a starter solenoid".
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
He states about 8-10 amps to hold solenoid engaged but up to 35 amps for its initial surge.

Hope this helps, Bill.

[vamram]

[ashman40]

[vamram]

Great info, thanks to both of you. Sounds like the bigger breaker would be good for the initial start but the key is to fuse it for what it needs on a constant basis rather than the surge so 15 amps should do.

What about the brand of fuses? Are the blade ones sold at say Advanced Auto good enough quality so that I'm not constantly having to pop up the back seat to replace fuses?
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Tim Donahoe]

When I installed my HSR, I used a 20 amp fuse--the kind with a u-shaped metal filament that you can see inside the plastic. I got my relay from Wolfsburg West. It works well. No issues.

I didn't really need a Hard start relay. I just put it in to prolong the electrical part of my ignition.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien