Starter Button Wiring Problem...Help!!

[vamram]

I don't know if I need it or not, but many smart posters here recommend it so what the heck. I have one on my '72. I sure can't tell what it's doing based on sound or how long the car cranks before it starts, but I figure whatever good's happening is taking place in that little black box. That's about the extent of my personal faith!

Not to further reveal my electrical ineptitude , but how do I know if the HSR has gone bad? The car stops cranking? Starts and dies?
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'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
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Save the Supers!!

[rockerarm]

Hi. So, what's up? You don't have second thoughts here, do you? I understand. But recognize that many of the samba rangers here want you to install a new harness, new electrical ignition switch, new battery cables, new trans ground strap, and new starter to fix your specific concern! Many people here, to include me, can not afford to do this.
I currently have a daily driver type 1 and a type 2. Both cars have a Bosch relay for the terminal 50 circuit. And I would have it no other way with my current situation.
Recognize the fact that your car has been dicked with. There was a problem somewhere. The fix you have on your car is a bit of a mess, with two damn switches.
The installation of the HSR, as ashman40 supported, has some advantages you should consider:
1- The HSR will "overlook" some of the bogus wiring boo-boo's from the PO.
2- The HSR is a "plug-and-play" system and it does not compromise the integrity of your cars original wiring. It augments it with the HSR. It can be removed at any time.
Some will say that eventually the starter or the ignition switch will fail. But the argument is those parts can fail regardless of the HSR install.
If the HSR fails, as you asked, just jump terminal 30 to terminal 87.
WOW, that felt good. Just work it, as it does work well, Bill
The use of relays is not a fad here. For a couple of decades VW's have utilized relays for the horn circuit, the headlight circuit, and the starter circuit. Damn, on Pelican Parts, a Porsche/BMW site, a local SoCal gent was fab'ing up relays to offset the poor brake light switches available.

[vamram]

[rockerarm]

Hi. Yeah that looks kinda ugly. Originally, there was a rectangular, white colored, multi-plug connector for those wires. One goes to the battery, another to the alternator, and the third to the front of the car.
There's probably a multitude of ways to improve that. At a minimum, clean up the connectors individually. I'm sure the electrical connectors are available, but the white multi-plug not sure. It was used, probably, from '74 onward on type 1's.
It is quite possible that because of this there are voltage drops/loss' in the circuit that should start your car up. Just speculation here. Many folks here encourage owners to invest time individually cleaning connections AND magically some electrical gremlins disappear.

[vamram]

I'll be on the hunt for one of those plastic multi-plug connectors...

What about the thinner red wire that's not connected to anything? What was that wire supposed to connect to?
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[rockerarm]

Hi. Check out the wiring diagrams here for your car. But, think it is for the rear window defogger/fuse connector.
Wiring is in the technical section

[vamram]

That is a hard diagram to read for the "common man" like me. But it looks like that clump of wires belong to tracks 2,3, 22, 26-28, and switches A, J9, J34 and maybe E3 and J2.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[TX-73]

Victor, I don't know if this helps, I would certainly take what Ashman says as definitive.

I have an alternator with internal regulator but the concept here is that the connector has been replaced with a circuit breaker. The fat red wire on the left is from the battery circuit breaker. The left red wire was from the alternator (it was redundant and has since been removed), the right red wire is feed to the fusebox.

This is at the battery.
The 2 red wires from + terminal through back of car are to alternator and starter. Then 1 wire from + terminal to feed main circuit breaker.
The 3 wires on output of main circuit breaker are to the smaller circuit breaker in the first pic above, to an auxillary blade style fuseblock in the trunk (feeds headlights, stereo, amp), and to the start relay right next to the main circuit breaker. Start relay feed has an inline fuse.

Early-on pic. All wiring through tunnel is grommeted and shielded and has been routed away from any shifter components.

Other applications/preferences may vary, but this setup has worked perfectly for me.
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My 1973 Standard Beetle Build SOLD
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[vamram]

Tx - thanks for this, all great information. I don't have the luxury of completely replacing the harness, but let me ask you about a couple of the items you pointed out.

[Tim Donahoe]

Go to the Classifieds. 1968 and Up Type 1 Bug. In that Search, type in Connector. At the bottom of the page, vwearl had 4-way connectors.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1407992

Or ... look in my post below for a better alternative.

Will this help?

Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[TX-73]

[quote="vamram"]Tx - thanks for this, all great information. I don't have the luxury of completely replacing the harness, but let me ask you about a couple of the items you pointed out.


What is that exact part that you used to replace the 4-wire connector? It's a 12v auto-reset circuit breaker, in this case if I remember right with 20 amp rating. This one has the attachment bracket. I get them from delcity or waytek but they are fairly common, might be available at FLAPS.
https://www.delcity.net/store/auto-reset-circuit-breakers-!-12-volt/p_198669.h_198848.t_1

Can I use that w/out also installing the circuit breaker at the battery? Yes

Also, my alternator is externally regulated, so I guess I can't remove the 4th wire as you did. Correct - in my case that fat red wire is a new larger-gauge wire I ran from the alternator to the battery, that's why I didn't need the smaller one anymore. 90 am alternator.
_________________
My 1973 Standard Beetle Build SOLD
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[ashman40]

[Tim Donahoe]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1906069

Here's another that seems more like mine.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[vamram]

[TX-73]

Victor, the main circuit breaker and starter relay are not mandatory, for me they were simply personal preference. Same with the battery cutoff switch you saw in the build. Car is not a daily driver and my preference also there was to isolate the electrical system.
_________________
My 1973 Standard Beetle Build SOLD
Click to view image

[rockerarm]

Hi. The circuit breaker is not overkill. That white rectangular multi-plug is the cats meow! Exactly what you need if you want it to be OEM. The fact that the spades are jacked up is no big deal, as the replacement electrical connectors are probably about $2 for all 3 or 4.
If you buy the circuit breaker, which is probably $3-$10 and the needed eyelets for the spade replacements, it all good. You may have less than $20 in supplies for this repair.
If it was me I would use the circuit breaker to get this circuit up and working. I would wire it up so the battery source is on one terminal and everything else is on the other terminal. Why? I think we all can agree that this cars wiring has been jacked up a bit by someone. Until I was sure there are no more boo-boo's I would protect the circuit in this manner.
For the purists that may loose sleep over this, oh well, aftermarket camper conversions have used similar circuit protection for the camper electronics for decades.
Hope this helps, Bill

[vamram]

Tx, I like to clean up and improve what I can and is reasonable for my circumstances. I like your design to isolate your electrical system.

Here's a close-up of the connector mash the PO made.

There was a thin gray wire attached to the red/white stripe wire I hadn't noticed before. What's that for?

I'm not a purist for these particular items, so, Bill, I went w/Tx's breaker and the eyelets. Here's the wire w/the ilet -

Heat-shrinked:

And here's the breaker mocked up. I'll move the 3rd one to the left post and keep the battery isolated as you suggest Bill. I can't explain it, but it sounds like a good idea.

All this is progress, but I've run into a big pothole in my project that's going to put a hold on getting the car back on the road until I clean this up....rust under the orginial floor insulation.

I'm not a perfectionist by any means, but I'm OCD enough that I won't be able to sleep if I ignore that and just put the car back together as-is.
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[ashman40]

[vamram]

Ashman, I definitely want a working defrost so I will check the wires connected to the relay. I know that it has one unused spade connector, so perhaps that PO had it wired for some other function. I think I'll be tracing many more wires before this is road-ready...

And I'm putting a temporary halt to wiring fixes now that I discovered that my driver side floor pan is rusting from inside out under the factory sound proofing. I'm going to tackle that for starters this Saturday before any more wiring.

Gotta try to kill that stuff before the real winter sets in, otherwise the car won't be driven until Spring and that's a definite buzz killer for me. I drive my Bugs year-round, come hell or high water!!!
_________________
Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[ashman40]