| Author |
Message |
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
 |
|
| ronjonlasvegas wrote: |
| I think you need to take the Ghia to Karmann Ghia Parts and restoration. I think they are in Ventura, CA. Maybe Scott the founder can give you his expert opinion. |
This is very good advice. If anyone can provide a truly expert opinion on Ghias, these guys can...they've been dealing with these cars for almost 30 years. It would be best to have them see the car in as much of a stripped-down state as possible...even if you have to rent a trailer to haul it down there.
Hope you still have a copy of the original ad...this will be crucial in establishing your case. I can see the seller claiming that the car was a '63 convertible (which it is, sort of), but never mentioning if it was originally a convertible or not.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
This is the shop I mentioned when we talked earlier .
LaVeres- http://vwandaudionly.com
They seem to have the best reputation in the bay area.
My opinion is that there where enough clues that this car was a hack ,that 'save all ghias' is experienced enough to have know immediately. Downerman also mentioned that there where strengthening bars welded to the under side. That is the first thing that would send a red flag
Last edited by swavananda on Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69824
Location: Phoenix Metro
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
Not knowing Ghias, just throwing something out there. And I have absolutely no stake in this. Is it possible the seller did not know that there were changes and was just flipping the car?
Here's a scenario I had run across that you should ponder. Person had a bug for sale...thought it was worked on by a qualified relative and thought the car was good and solid. Had good intentions when trying to sell it. HOWEVER - turns out the car had some major structural rot that needed to be addressed.
IF she had sold the car before it was repaired and someone discovered the rot after the fact, should they be sued? Most used cars are sold as is. And wondering if this was something like had happened here? Just suggesting that everyone not jump to conclusions and hang someone who may not have done anything intentionally wrong.
Hate seeing people jump to conclusion and create an angry mob...
P.S. I have been ripped off myself. A seller lied through their teeth...BUT I bought the car so its my problem....And the title thing...Have done that recently - bought a car and flipped it within a couple weeks. Title wasnt back from the state yet...Had to mail it to the buyer a week or so after they picked it up.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rcooled
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2008
Posts: 2506
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
| andk5591 wrote: |
| Is it possible the seller did not know that there were changes and was just flipping the car? |
This is an experienced seller who definitely knows Ghias...he's flipped dozens of 'em.
_________________
'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
not cool at all..... I've seen the sellers postings while I dont know him it's obvious to me he knows ghias... while it is your responsibility to inspect car before purchase it's not always feasible or we sometimes take things at face value especially when we are dealing with a "reputable" seller here on the samba or vw community as a whole...
shady situation to say the least, and fraudulent all day long simply because of the title situation and his history with these cars....pending the verbiage in the ad you shoundnt have anything to worry about, communicate only with a paper trail and if he refuses to work with you definitely sue him...
the 3 week scenario was to make sure funds cleared and you couldn't refuse payment after seeing the title in all caps read, Model: CP
while I don't know half the story this alone sets me over the edge and has scam written all over it.... I was going to buy some parts he had for sale but I'll be passing on that after hearing about this transaction...
not sure about '63 verts but later ghias had 3 holes at the very rear of the heater channel at the fender well... these were capped with plastic plugs, can be seen on inner well.... not sure what these holes were for...
_________________
BUS WANTED: 13 window BUS any year considered.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RockStock
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2004
Posts: 3929
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
| lhwood wrote: |
| save all Ghias" seemed to me to be a pretty cool dude. He buys recovers a lot of Ghias. He may have saved it that way |
Mate, what utter guff.
The bloke's forum name is SPIN. Suckers like you get taken in by it. His forum name should be Flip All Ghias.
Of course 'Steve' knew what he was selling. Fraud. Give the guy his money back; recover a little bit of your dignity.
_________________
-StockRocks- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RockStock
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2004
Posts: 3929
Location: England
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jason_hamilton
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 1118
Location: Abbotsford, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:57 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
I think this thread has satisfied the original question as to whether the car is correct. Anything else is just internet lawyering. The buyer has options for recourse that are best explored elsewhere.
I say lock it down.
_________________
Jason Hamilton
1969 Karmann Ghia coupe
@MiddleAgedHoon |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trelms
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 248
Location: Denver
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
OP:
Is the title a new co title or old with transfers on the back?
I can confirm a CO title will say CV for vert. That being said here at the DMV they will make mistakes, misspells, etc esp with old cars. When I titled mine they didn't know what a karmann ghia was. So it's not really an option in the system.
BUT! Looking at those welds and lip I'd say it's fake. Window frame looks pretty correct but check for welds in the trunk above the fuse box. Maybe they patched it in there. Or look for other original paint colors in there as well.
Sucks. Hope you sort it out. Thank god it's not a 356 or something that was 10xs the price.
_________________
'74 Ghia Vert SOLD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Downerman
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2004
Posts: 65
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:22 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
Listen I would like to say thank you for the support and information from all of you. I would also agree inspite of my anger towards this guy that the post has clearly been beneficial for me and it's brought to light many things. Now I just need to gather my facts and get my ducks in a row for an inevitable court case.
I will get the car to one of the two resources in the thread and get an accurate assessment with respect to the original build of the car. In addition I do want to still get that birth certificate although I truly believe the Colorado Certificate of Title would suffice in court. How does one go about getting this birth certificate?
Again, my thanks for all of your help and support.
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RockStock
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2004
Posts: 3929
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:25 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
| jason_hamilton wrote: |
And this is where it gets dangerous. The pitchforks and torches are out and the wrong guy gets named.
I think this thread has satisfied the original question as to whether the car is correct |
I think its good the seller gets a little publicity. Goes towards protecting real Ghia people.
_________________
-StockRocks- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
63 vwnotch
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 734
Location: Riverside,CA Econo Motors
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
I disagree and don't think the thread should be locked, but do agree it will be sorted out and not with us chiming in.. however people need to be exposed for the truth, he has probably already viewed and read this thread but hasn't chimed in,this is his opertunity to save face and share..
there was no reason to hold title other than the obvious, I've never sold a vehicle before I found and had title in hand... that alone is bothersome.. While the OP placed to much trust in this transaction doesn't mean he deserved to be taken advantage of..
EDIT: OP there is a sticky here on how to obtain birth cert..
_________________
BUS WANTED: 13 window BUS any year considered.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Moxon
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13955
Location: Southampton U.K.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
Hi and sorry for the mess your in here.
In Calif, if you think a crime occurred, you would need to have all your documentation and present it to a law enforcement agency. Not sure where you're at but some police agencies are small and may not have an auto detail that deals with issues like stolen cars/chop shops/etc. The CHP are the experts in this. You may want to talk to a detective possible in the bay area. Smaller police agencies might handle this like a "crimes against persons- fraud case" scenario. The one thing any police agency has to consider and prove is "criminal intent". Did he intend to defraud you. Then the district attorney has to want the case. It is complicated.
If you feel you "have been damaged" that would be a civil case in Calif. Depending on your damages this could be a small claims, limited civil, or unlimited civil case. The burden of proof is less in a civil vs a criminal. Look into the time frame to file here. I've heard that it is advantageous to let the criminal case work its way. If a guilty verdict is rendered you can use this verdict in the civil case. I'm no attorney but have been told that cases can go this way.
The seller lists his trade in real estate. Many of these guys deal with attorney's all the time, so they know the ropes. You might have to prove that he knowingly sold you the car as a vert or did the mod's himself, to prove fraud or misrepresentation. His defense could be in Calif a clean rust free '63 ghia can be worth this much money. There is a lot to this.
Bill. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluedot
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2013
Posts: 439
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
Sorry for your pain with this.
Working with Mike Gregory at the House of Ghia for a few years (I did his site and a bunch of marketing stuff for them) I saw some total abominations that people bought thinking they had a good car. Usually off of ebay.
We stated on his site that requesting a buying survey from an expert is super important when dishing out $$$ on a car.
For instance, I saw a "convertible" someone paid top dollars for, that they cut the door pillars to get the top to fit! Seriously. (Didn't know how to change the door gap) Or how about an aluminum gutter used to recreate rocker panels? Wha?
We're in an interesting time in ghia history. They were almost worthless for years, and people enjoyed hacking them up for fun. Beware of repaints and missing trim that has been filled.
One of the reasons we decided to strip our ghia and leave it in patina, is so you can actually SEE what it's history has been. Preservation instead of restoration!! There are so many bondo covered rust buckets out there, pan swaps, vert creations, etc that to not call in an expert can be a costly mistake. I wanted to say this for the record, so other potential buyers learn from this.
Good luck with your process of restitution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Downerman
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2004
Posts: 65
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
Just an FYI, I updated "SaveAllGhias" - AKA Steve's feedback page with some more pics if your interested. Take a look at Everett's post in this thread of the original ad and then head on over.
D |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mos6502
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2015
Posts: 725
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
| andk5591 wrote: |
Not knowing Ghias, just throwing something out there. And I have absolutely no stake in this. Is it possible the seller did not know that there were changes and was just flipping the car?
Here's a scenario I had run across that you should ponder. Person had a bug for sale...thought it was worked on by a qualified relative and thought the car was good and solid. Had good intentions when trying to sell it. HOWEVER - turns out the car had some major structural rot that needed to be addressed.
IF she had sold the car before it was repaired and someone discovered the rot after the fact, should they be sued? Most used cars are sold as is. And wondering if this was something like had happened here? Just suggesting that everyone not jump to conclusions and hang someone who may not have done anything intentionally wrong.
Hate seeing people jump to conclusion and create an angry mob...
P.S. I have been ripped off myself. A seller lied through their teeth...BUT I bought the car so its my problem....And the title thing...Have done that recently - bought a car and flipped it within a couple weeks. Title wasnt back from the state yet...Had to mail it to the buyer a week or so after they picked it up. |
That's not how as-is sales work. As-is sales basically mean that if somebody buys the car, drives it five minutes, and it blows up, gets wrecked, or whatever, the seller isn't responsible. As-is basically means there is no warranty. Misrepresentation of the sold item is NEVER protected by an as-is sale. A seller, for instance, can't sell a stolen car, then hide behind "as-is" to protect themselves (even if they didn't know it was stolen). Nor can they roll back an odometer, lie about accident damage, etc. If the seller has any brains at all, they will take the car back and refund the sale price. They have no chance winning this one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
grailoc
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2004
Posts: 1441
Location: FRANCE and now QUEBEC city
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:29 am Post subject: Re: I m pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible |
|
|
I don't quite get how this is a crime/fraud/scam/outrage etc - it is disappointing that a Samba member would not disclose that this is a conversion and not provide the title until after the sale. But the advert doesn't seem to claim it as an original convertible and caveat emptor (buyer beware) applies to used car sales so if the buyer did not do their due diligence and check the title before the sale I am not sure how this is a crime etc. It still looks like a decent car so if it was me I would just swap the carpet set for the one that fits and enjoy the car.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
