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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69798
Location: Phoenix Metro
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 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
| Picture 2: Truck driver used the vent on the sidewall of the van to attach the strap. Luckily that didn't get ripped out and add sheet metal damage to your list of issues. Just that alone tells me the driver is an idiot. |
I was wondering about that - thanks for the confirmation that was stupid
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Cali_Army_Guy
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Joined: March 19, 2015
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
| Picture 2: Truck driver used the vent on the sidewall of the van to attach the strap. Luckily that didn't get ripped out and add sheet metal damage to your list of issues. Just that alone tells me the driver is an idiot. |
I was wondering about that - thanks for the confirmation that was stupid |
And something else I just noticed. Zoom in on the strap to the right of the one hooked to the vent. It's literally hooked to the lip of the window rubber. Third strap is hooked to the fender well. Depending on how tight that one was cinched down the inside fender lip is likely bent. That driver has no clue on how to do his job correctly.
OP: Go over the entire bus with a fine tooth comb and note EVERYTHING. At this point we can't even assume it was attached to the truck itself correctly.
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Gary
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Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:03 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| New2me69 wrote: |
You should honestly tell them that you'll accept their "act of God" reasoning if they are honestly saying that God was the one who loaded your van onto the deck. Otherwise, there really is NO way they are not responsible/covered for the load.
It is absolutely 100% in their corner. I say this because I'm pretty sure God, no matter which you choose, doesn't work for their company. |
That makes no sense and adds nothing to the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God
| Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
As a former tow truck/transport driver I'd take it to smalls claims also. Your two pictures say it all.
Picture 1: You never never ever load one of those backwards. You also never load a convertible, camper, truck with camper shell, truck with bed cover, or car with one of those roof mount storage things backwards. None of that is designed to have 70mph wind blowing against it in reverse.
As for the comment about it being right behind the cab of the truck. That likely helped the problem start. There's a vortex right there from the air coming around and over the semi. Wouldn't be surprised if the roof started to get sucked up a bit then blew off once it got high enough.
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Let's add some complexity to the mix:
Is this supposed to be loaded facing forward or backward? (Riviera)
I believe this should be loaded facing backward. (1970's Westfalia)
How about a 1968 Dormobile conversion?
Not all hauling companies are the same. Everyone is speculating based on a lot of assumptions by instantly faulting the driver and the company. What are the limitations and responsibilities laid out in the shipping contract. If there is a clause stating the shipper (person who is turning control of the vehicle over to the company) is wholly responsible for noting special performance or construction characteristics of the vehicle which could affect transport, then the claim could be rejected. I'm curious of the deck height of the transport trailer would have prohibited the vehicle (or any I listed above) from being loaded on the bottom deck.
| Quote: |
Picture 2: Truck driver used the vent on the sidewall of the van to attach the strap. Luckily that didn't get ripped out and add sheet metal damage to your list of issues. Just that alone tells me the driver is an idiot.
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I noted that as well but chose to ignore it in my earlier post. This would most likely fail the Reasonable Person. I have hauled enough vehicles and items that could shift that I would have had the Bus wrapped with two to three 3" wide ratchet straps.
*NOTE
A few people have made statements as the the costs and dollar amounts required to file a small claims action. These vary by state statue. Also, filing a claims actions DOES NOT have to be filed in the State where the vehicle was loaded onto the transport. The destination will suffice as having jurisdiction.
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67ctbug
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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IMHO all campers should be placed forward as if it were driving. They were not designed to go 60-80 mph backwards. This in no way was an act of God, the driver clearly didn't secure it right or enough and most likely never checked on it.
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| KentPS wrote: |
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future".  |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| 67ctbug wrote: |
| IMHO all campers should be placed forward as if it were driving. They were not designed to go 60-80 mph backwards. This in no way was an act of God, the driver clearly didn't secure it right or enough and most likely never checked on it. |
I'm just not buying this
Having lived a chunk of life in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas.....read that as states woth frequent wind storms that generate winds of 60-70 mph numerous times per year.....this would meqn that there would be this godawful common happenstance that any pop top bus parked in the wrong direction would have had its top ripped off and blown down the street.
Over the 40+ years these heaps have been owned, parked in driveways and backyards.....we would have heard of this happening hundreds of times by now.
To the owner...yes there is some liahility and insurance you should be able to work out. But I ask this:
Havd hou been driving and maintaining this bus?.....know about the exact condition and fitment of the stock hold downs?....know about the sxact condition and fitment of the lift brackets and fit of the top around the edge of the roof?.....I may be wrong but ai am betting not since you just inherited it.
Did you ho to any pains to make sure that any MOVEABLE/REMOVEABLE or pilferable, easily breakable items were removed, carefully tied down or stowed?....items like....mirrors, hubcaps, antenna......the poptop.....locking the engine hatch if possible?
Not being pointy......but its your car....its collectible...and its out of your control and its ripping across country.....uncovered in all weather in plain sight of the public out in the elements at highway speed on the back of a truck.
At very least....I would have popped for a blue tarp from Home Depot and 50 feet of nylon rope.
I am pointing this out for others who are planning things like this. Its your car. Trust no one. You are ultimately responsible. Prepare and plan for the worst.
Yea the transport company owes you something.....but you are partially responsible. You own it and nothing was preventing you from taking other precautions. Ray |
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Q-Dog
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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I don't see how this is the driver's fault, unless the driver opened the roof. The driver is handed the keys and is told the vehicle is ready for transport. He loads it up, straps it to the transport and goes on to his next stop. The transport company probably has an expectation that any road-going vehicle will not come apart while travelling at highway speeds. If the vehicle requires additional securing other than attaching the vehicle to the transport it should be stipulated in the contract or prepared by the vehicle owner.
Vehicle transports load vehicles backwards all the time. If the vehicle can't be loaded backwards onto a standard transport that needs to be noted in the contract. Alternatively, there are enclosed transports available for vehicles that are too delicate to ride on an open transport.
I don't understand the need for today's society to blame someone when bad stuff happens. Yes, sometimes stuff happens. One of the main ways humans learn what not to do, is to study our failures.
I would expect that if hauling one of these vans on a transport was not advisable the folks over in the van forums would have some discussion about it.
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enjoyther1de
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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^^^^^ just don't let them hear you calling them "vans".
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| enjoyther1de wrote: |
| ^^^^^ just don't let them hear you calling them "vans". |
No no...we have it down correctly. Vans are brightly colored, highly decorated and overly expensive....cheaply made sneakers.......frequently worn by drivers of VW buses......
Ray |
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67ctbug
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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^^^^^
Now if vans made sneakers with Vw busses on them it would be great!
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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raygreenwood
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hitest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
I don't understand the need for today's society to blame someone when bad stuff happens. Yes, sometimes stuff happens. One of the main ways humans learn what not to do, is to study our failures. |
In a way, true- but they blamed God. These cats are in the car transport business and intentionally countered any aerodynamic advantage the bus or its roof had. Society also teaches us that whether it be accidental or intentional- it is our burden when we cause the event. Not the bus owner- the transport Co.
There are pop top buses in all generations of these things, so perhaps the vanagon guys aren't here in the generals very often. I'm confident anyone who owns a pop top bus would share consensus on transport right and wrong. The pictures above that question right towing direction all leave out an important feature: the windshield.
When we were five we learned to pull our ball caps down further over our foreheads on our bikes. In strong wind, what did we do? We held it down with our hand as we rode our bikes faster. These guys lack basic smarts and care- and are hedging liability as a part of a business plan that defends their own ignorance.
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| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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67ctbug
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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Those are good, but they are sharpie. Think a pair of the high tops using the sides from and back as a painting to get a full bus on there.
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| KentPS wrote: |
| ...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". |
| mukluk wrote: |
| He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane. |
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Q-Dog
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| hitest wrote: |
| Q-Dog wrote: |
I don't understand the need for today's society to blame someone when bad stuff happens. Yes, sometimes stuff happens. One of the main ways humans learn what not to do, is to study our failures. |
In a way, true- but they blamed God. These cats are in the car transport business and intentionally countered any aerodynamic advantage the bus or its roof had. Society also teaches us that whether it be accidental or intentional- it is our burden when we cause the event. Not the bus owner- the transport Co.
... |
I still don't see how the unsecured roof is the fault of the driver or the transport company. If the owner secured it, and the driver didn't open it, how did it come open? Even though I don't believe it, "Act of god" would seem to explain it.
| hitest wrote: |
...
When we were five we learned to pull our ball caps down further over our foreheads on our bikes. In strong wind, what did we do? We held it down with our hand as we rode our bikes faster. These guys lack basic smarts and care- and are hedging liability as a part of a business plan that defends their own ignorance. |
I learned that if I turn the cap backwards the wind wouldn't take it and I could keep both hands on the bars. And, it only took the cap flying off once to figure that out. It's almost like we were each learning from our own individual experiences!
My guess is both the owner of the bus and the driver of the transport will learn something from this experience.
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williamM
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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The Riviera top is held down by 4 "jeep hood" clips on the front half of the roof only---- If loaded backward- it would not take much to lift it from the back and tear those clamps off as they are held on by 2- count them 2 wood screws on common plywood. --Then if the canvas was rotten or the wood it is stapled to is not quality (it isn't trust me) The only thing holding the frame to the top is again a few wood screws.
This top will not take much to have it torn off- as is seen in the photos. If facing forward- it has a recess to sit in with the front storage and the 4 clamps hold the front 1/2 of the top just fine.
Towing backward was the error here. The transport people should just mark it as lesson learned and pay up.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| williamM wrote: |
The Riviera top is held down by 4 "jeep hood" clips on the front half of the roof only---- If loaded backward- it would not take much to lift it from the back and tear those clamps off as they are held on by 2- count them 2 wood screws on common plywood. --Then if the canvas was rotten or the wood it is stapled to is not quality (it isn't trust me) The only thing holding the frame to the top is again a few wood screws.
This top will not take much to have it torn off- as is seen in the photos. If facing forward- it has a recess to sit in with the front storage and the 4 clamps hold the front 1/2 of the top just fine.
Towing backward was the error here. The transport people should just mark it as lesson learned and pay up.
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So....you seem to know an awful lot about how the top is constructed and where the latches are. As a VW guy...you should.
Why would you suppose ANY towing/transport driver who is not a VW transport expert...would have even one piece of that information.
What book(s) is that in? Where online is that information?
So in effect...why is loading it backwards the transport company fault?
Its actually their responsibility since they transported it....but if you walk into small claims with the argument you just made...you would lose.
I bet the original poster/owner of this bus did not have that information...so why would you suppose the shipping company would? Got a VW technical bulletin stating all of that...that the shipper could have looked up?
In the real world.....some due diligence should have been done by the owner...to make sure the van is "shippable" in the open without damage.
However...just because its the overall responsibility of the trucking company to get from there to here without damage...they will be the ones to get hosed for it.
Bet this company never transports another VW van either frontwards or backwards if they have to pay for that top. Ray |
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williamM
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
| Picture 2: Truck driver used the vent on the sidewall of the van to attach the strap. Luckily that didn't get ripped out and add sheet metal damage to your list of issues. Just that alone tells me the driver is an idiot. |
I was wondering about that - thanks for the confirmation that was stupid |
it's even worse than a "vent" its the 120vt power in tap- if that unit bent, there are wires inside the wall to consider. 
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williamM
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
Towing backward was the error here. The transport people should just mark it as lesson learned and pay up.
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However...just because its the overall responsibility of the trucking company to get from there to here without damage...they will be the ones to get hosed for it.
Bet this company never transports another VW van either frontwards or backwards if they have to pay for that top. Ray |
Agree with it all- it's a sad day we lose a shipper willing to ship exotic and collectible cars.
but as you know- courts seldom land on the side of an "expert" vs customer.
Its like the implied warranty- I can only dream of the repairs and inspections of a 40+ year old anything that might have an "implied warranty"
I was with a motorhome that got towed and they put a ding in the chrome bumper- Was it obvious the bumper would get dented- was it obvious this bus would lose a roof--- so it's a no fault situation- but the owner handed over a bunch of $ to get the bus transported.- hell he may not even known the risks. but trusted the shippers- how many people - when observing a bus being loaded will --with No real knowledge of the bus- say "Ah- I don't think you should load it that way"
In summation-- (thank God)-- thats what insurance is for- First the transport co and then the personal owners insurance,
But if your opening salvo as a shipper- is- "Must have been an act og GOD"-- well that ship wouldn't fly well with anybody here.
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Lind
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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Transporting cars is a great way to get them damaged. There are plenty of tricks to minimize the chances of such damage.
Never transport any vintage vehicle backwards. If a door pops open going forward, the wind will hold it towards the closed position. If the car is pointed backwards, it will fold the door more open than it should ever be. This can be very difficult and expensive to repair.
Riviera poptops are held down by eight small wood screws through the four latches into 40+ year old wood that is often slightly rotted at those screw holes. The poptop is spring loaded and wants to open. The best thing to do is to put oversize screws to hold those latches on really good.
Don't be afraid to use ratchet straps on the inside to hold things closed (like the front doors, poptop, etc.)
If you are using ratchet straps on the outside, make sure that they have half a twist in them so that they vibrate less in the wind. Make sure that they will not rub against the paint.
Hire the company that is transporting your vehicle. Do not let them sub it out to a different carrier.
Insure your vehicle.
Only use licensed insured shippers. Many of the clowns who you might find on youship are not insured. Any reputable shipper will have a DOT number on their truck. If a truck says "not for hire" than you are pretty much guaranteed there is no insurance on your vehicle.
Don't sign off on the damage if it happens. The drivers will often use all kinds of tricks to get you to accept the vehicle with the damage. They will have a report showing any damage when the vehicle was shipped. Make them note the damage which is on the vehicle on delivery. take lots of pictures. Have the person who loads the vehicle take pictures before loading, and after it is loaded.
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Gary
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| williamM wrote: |
but as you know- courts seldom land on the side of an "expert" vs customer. |
Do you have any hard data to back that statement? Or is that comment the typical "judges and lawyers are idiots" tripe?
| williamM wrote: |
Its like the implied warranty- I can only dream of the repairs and inspections of a 40+ year old anything that might have an "implied warranty"
|
Here's another misapplied legal term by lay lawyers: Implied Warranties explained.
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A promise, arising by operation of law, that something that is sold will be merchantable and fit for the purpose for which it is sold.
Every time goods are bought and sold, a sales contract is created: the buyer agrees to pay, and the seller agrees to accept, a certain price in exchange for a certain item or number of items. Sales contracts are frequently oral, unwritten agreements. The purchase of items like a candy bar hardly seems worth the trouble of drafting an agreement spelling out the buyer's expectation that the candy bar will be fresh and edible. Implied warranties protect the buyer whether or not a written sales contract exists. |
| Lind wrote: |
Transporting cars is a great way to get them damaged. There are plenty of tricks to minimize the chances of such damage.
Never transport any vintage vehicle backwards. If a door pops open going forward, the wind will hold it towards the closed position. If the car is pointed backwards, it will fold the door more open than it should ever be. This can be very difficult and expensive to repair.
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The age of the vehicle has nothing to do with how it's transported. It has to do with how well it is loaded and secured to the trailer. People hauling a vehicle on a single-vehicle trailer might have to load the vehicle backward for proper tongue-weight; otherwise, the driver can lose complete control of the vehicle.
| Lind wrote: |
Don't sign off on the damage if it happens. The drivers will often use all kinds of tricks to get you to accept the vehicle with the damage. They will have a report showing any damage when the vehicle was shipped. Make them note the damage which is on the vehicle on delivery. take lots of pictures. Have the person who loads the vehicle take pictures before loading, and after it is loaded. |
This is good advice for any services rendered. The customer should never sign off unless and until all work has been inspected and meets the contract requirements.
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:04 am Post subject: Re: VW bus damaged in transport |
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| Gary wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
but as you know- courts seldom land on the side of an "expert" vs customer. |
Do you have any hard data to back that statement? Or is that comment the typical "judges and lawyers are idiots" tripe?
| williamM wrote: |
Its like the implied warranty- I can only dream of the repairs and inspections of a 40+ year old anything that might have an "implied warranty"
|
Here's another misapplied legal term by lay lawyers: Implied Warranties explained.
| Quote: |
A promise, arising by operation of law, that something that is sold will be merchantable and fit for the purpose for which it is sold.
Every time goods are bought and sold, a sales contract is created: the buyer agrees to pay, and the seller agrees to accept, a certain price in exchange for a certain item or number of items. Sales contracts are frequently oral, unwritten agreements. The purchase of items like a candy bar hardly seems worth the trouble of drafting an agreement spelling out the buyer's expectation that the candy bar will be fresh and edible. Implied warranties protect the buyer whether or not a written sales contract exists. |
| Lind wrote: |
Transporting cars is a great way to get them damaged. There are plenty of tricks to minimize the chances of such damage.
Never transport any vintage vehicle backwards. If a door pops open going forward, the wind will hold it towards the closed position. If the car is pointed backwards, it will fold the door more open than it should ever be. This can be very difficult and expensive to repair.
|
The age of the vehicle has nothing to do with how it's transported. It has to do with how well it is loaded and secured to the trailer. People hauling a vehicle on a single-vehicle trailer might have to load the vehicle backward for proper tongue-weight; otherwise, the driver can lose complete control of the vehicle.
| Lind wrote: |
Don't sign off on the damage if it happens. The drivers will often use all kinds of tricks to get you to accept the vehicle with the damage. They will have a report showing any damage when the vehicle was shipped. Make them note the damage which is on the vehicle on delivery. take lots of pictures. Have the person who loads the vehicle take pictures before loading, and after it is loaded. |
This is good advice for any services rendered. The customer should never sign off unless and until all work has been inspected and meets the contract requirements. |
Totally agree.
My issue with wome of the other previous comments....."never load a vintage car backwards....the doors may spring open"......?....dude.....thats YOUR problem as the owner.
Where in any factory manual or DOT or TUV spec does it say that cars driven backward may have the doors spring open?......well....it doesn't.....because if a car in NORMAL condition had that issue.....it would not be allowed to be imported or certified for use on the road.
If because its an older car in unrestored shape....it has any odd risk like that.....that is the owners problem. Take the time to secure it or inform the shipper and ask for their input and assistance.
This is similar to the same issues large manufacturing companies experience with UPS and FedEx.
I have had to design packaging for many companies If you are producing a NEW and fragile product......if you want it to be covered for breakage under UPS or FedEx warranty....their agent is more than happy to make an appointment to inspect how the item is packed. If you do not take the time to have your packaging approved.....ALL of your claims will de denied.
I mean damn....if you are shipping crystal vases and just loading them into cardboard boxes with no other precautions.....why would the shipper warrant their condition. You dont care....we dont care.
Its no different with shipping your car.
Although the "Act of God" statement....will probably lose it for them in small claims......if they want to push it.....and simply Google the problem and find this thread......and note that bus people seem to know that the top is applied in a flimsy and specific manner....and took no packikg precautions....and failed to inform them of potential issues......you will lose.
Ray |
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