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Sears Circling the Drain
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
I think most of us on this thread need to take responsibility for some of the downfall of Craftsman tools as well as other once good USA made tools.

I'm sure I've played a small part, no doubt. Why get cleaned up and lose 2-3 hours out of my day to drive 20 miles to Sears to swap out a broken wrench that they may or may not have in stock?, for $5-$10 I can have a full set of China's finest waiting in the emergency tool drawer and continue on with what I was doing. Sometimes the Chinawrench breaks right away, many times it lasts almost as long as the Crafstman, sometimes it gets warmed up with a torch and customized to reach a special job, either way I'm still ahead a few hours by picking up the odd set when they are on sale and saving up all my Craftsman stuff for a single trip to the city and a mass return/exchange visit, although lately I've avoided that because they don't replace it with nearly as good quality or just don't have it in stock, I have better luck at the flea market. I've never really trusted Craftsman for the precision calibrated tools unless they are super old from a garage sale where the seller comes off as a guy who could appreciate a good tool so I take no responsibility for the downfall of that end of their market.

My son works at Princess auto (Canadian version of Harbor freight), thier return policy is as good as Sears or better and in the last few years they have been adding some higher quality options to thier line, it's not dirt cheap like the crude Chinawrench crap but they are nice tools that you could even count on to earn a living with if you had to. I don't trust thier precision stuff yet though.

Funny how the quality of the offshore stuff is improving while the "once made in the USA" stuff continues to decline Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

Actually that sounds a bit like Northern Tool.

Northern tool is not dirt cheap....but is quite inexpensive compared to the big box stores. Its quality level....a good amount of China stuff but a couple of notches above HF. They are known for their large power tools.....generators, pressure washers etc. Their Northstar variety are excellent quality. Some made off continent and some on.....but the equivalent of any of them in any other brand is almost 2x the cost. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
I think most of us on this thread need to take responsibility for some of the downfall of Craftsman tools as well as other once good USA made tools. When cheaper tools started flooding the market from Asia, many of us went that route to save a few bucks or in many cases, a lot of bucks! Even as a mechanic back in the early 80's, I had a hard time justifying buying off the tool trucks (Snap-on, MAC, etc). Their tool prices were SSOO much higher than many other tools back then. Proto and of course Craftsman comes to mind.

Today we have Harbor Freight where you can buy a complete wrench set for the cost of one Snap-on tool. Obviously, in many cases the Chinese tools are not the same quality but I rarely break any tools from Harbor Freight. Most I buy there are only occasional use tools too.

In the last several decades, Americans have become the throw away nation. Buy something new and when it breaks, throw it away and buy another one. TV's, electronics, tools, cars, etc.. It really doesn't seem that long ago that I'd take some TV tubes to the local Thrifty's drug store and check them to see which one burned out. Ok, maybe it was back in the 70's.. Gulp..

If one of my kids wanted to start building a tool box to work on cars as a hobby, I'd direct him to the swap meets and other places where you can still find good used American made tools dirt cheap.

Old tools are like old, used VW parts. In many cases the old VW parts and tools can be refurbished and be better than what's sold new today.

I disagree that I had a part in their demise. It was their change in policy that steered me away from going to their stores again, but I personally cannot reverse the fortunes of a company so large. Apparently, however, I wasn't the only one.

After that incident, I started buying Snap-on, a piece or small set at a time. What I saved in lost productivity due to broken tools, stripped fasteners, the tool's ability to access more places due to thinner profiles thanks to better metallurgy, & overall "feel" more than justified the cost difference. I have definitely done my part to keep some American (probably union) employees in a paycheck.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Actually that sounds a bit like Northern Tool.

Northern tool is not dirt cheap....but is quite inexpensive compared to the big box stores. Its quality level....a good amount of China stuff but a couple of notches above HF. They are known for their large power tools.....generators, pressure washers etc. Their Northstar variety are excellent quality. Some made off continent and some on.....but the equivalent of any of them in any other brand is almost 2x the cost. Ray

Now that you mention it I think Northern Tool or Northern Hydraulic is a US subsidiary or in bed with P.A. in some corporate way.
Some of the stuff is trash, but you get what you pay for, I get first hand reviews of what is coming back broken, and having the insider discount seals the deal for me most of the time Wink

I still go to local specialty shops for serious precision machine tools and non consumable welding equipment, most of the big ticket stuff that would really make my life miserable if it failed. I try to support the local guy whenever I can, but if all they are selling is marked up offshore garbage why not save a few bucks if I may be throwing it out soon anyways?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:


There are some of us.. that can pick up a tool.. and know it's top quality.
I do even own some China hand tools that I would put right up with the best of the best..



yeah I was thinkin that, didn't say it.
The warranty doesn't mean anything at this point. When they start out it means they mean business, if it does not work they WILL make it work, they want to know if it breaks, but after they have proved the point and learned all there is to know about how to make a whatever........ then what? then they are stuck with this "forever" warranty.
If it broke I don't want another one. Replacement isn't going to be better.

Story of "Snap On 16oz Dead Blow Ball Peen Soft Grip Hammer "
First one went 10 years, faces of hammer looked new, eventually started leaking the powder, but I think I could have fixed it.
Second hammer the face mushroomed in a year, looked like the moon. Started leaking, lasted 2 years.
Third hammer, broke in half and the one end of it goes across the room and puts a cut in another guys arm, less than one year.
Now on to hammer #4

Still glad for the warranty of the dowel pin puller, (they must be losing their ass on that?), but this hammer thing went from joke to flat stupid.
They will just keep making the hammer worse, until we give up or somebody has to have it surgically removed. I would have given up already, but the guy really likes that hammer, I guess.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

It's sad but a sign of the times that as a society, we've been conditioned the last few decades to buy the "cheapest" priced item we can find. Certainly millennials have grown up with this mind set. We're the "Walmart" generation where only the price counts, not the quality, where it was made in the world or what buying it does to a local economy or country.

We only have to look as far as VW parts sold today as an example. While many of us veterans KNOW and have the experience to recognize that it's immensely better to pony up and buy this specific part at whatever price point, EMPI crappy parts survives because the VW masses only see a price.

While I say this is sad, I'll also own that I'm personally all about a "deal" as well. Wink It's not uncommon for me to price check many different vendors for the same part or a part I know is equivalent. Then see who's offering free shipping to entice me to go with them. I think most of us see this as a financially smart thing to do as we have to stay economically viable as a house hold, right?

The internet has been a great tool to facilitate price checking companies to insure you're not getting gouged. Whether you're looking for a TV or a new widget. It's a nice tool to price check others selling the same or a comparable item.

My cell phone recently crapped out. While getting a new one at Sprint, I needed a new cover and screen protector since I bought a different model phone. The cover and screen protector being sold at Sprint were over $80 dollars for both. I came home, got on Amazon and found a 4-5 star rated cover and screen protector for $25 for both. Oh, and they were made in "Merica" damn it! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

My 1971 JC Penney Penncraft metric combination wrenches are still going strong, lifetime warranty !!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
My 1971 JC Penney Penncraft metric combination wrenches are still going strong, lifetime warranty !!!
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Of course it is, there is little use for a 15mm wrench on a bug (rear wheel seal carrier) or any other car for that matter. I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing

Mine certainly did, until I got aquainted with 80's/90's GM trucks, I had to locate wrenches I hadn't used or seen in years Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing

Mine certainly did, until I got aquainted with 80's/90's GM trucks, I had to locate wrenches I hadn't used or seen in years Shocked

VW & Audi made a switch to 16mm & 18 mm fasteners in the late 90s, I've always wondered what was the reason for the change.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing

Mine certainly did, until I got aquainted with 80's/90's GM trucks, I had to locate wrenches I hadn't used or seen in years Shocked

VW & Audi made a switch to 16mm & 18 mm fasteners in the late 90s, I've always wondered what was the reason for the change.


To sell more wrenches? Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

I thought it was just to give legitimacy to having/selling full sets.

Up until then the only tools needed were 7,8,10,13,17,19 mm wrenches & sockets unless you worked on Japanese cars & you dropped the 13 for 12 & 14.
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Last edited by TDCTDI on Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing

Mine certainly did, until I got aquainted with 80's/90's GM trucks, I had to locate wrenches I hadn't used or seen in years Shocked

VW & Audi made a switch to 16mm & 18 mm fasteners in the late 90s, I've always wondered what was the reason for the change.


To sell more wrenches? Smile


This is hilarious!.....and yes...I can attest that on my two modern VWs....2006 Jetta and my 2012 Golf....I have seen fastener sizes I had not seen in years. Just recently I had to install new front swaybar outer links. An 18mm....really?......

I believe what you are seeing is an even higher level of engineering and exact fastener sizing for increased load going on.

In the old days keeping with the VW philosophy of simplified maintenance .....you would see 13mm on something that could have sufficed probably with an 11 or 12mm.....simply to limit the tool kit range. You also see 17mm on items that could have sufficed with 15 or 16mm.

More expensive cars I have noticed....like Mercedes....where you were probably never invisioned to be doing your own work if they could do it for you for $$$.....I have noticed a more full range of fastener sizes. BMW was like this. Doing struts on a BMW was the first tike I EVER needed a 7mm allen key.

The outer links on my Golf......I can see that really it could have even used a 19mm bolt in that key position. It needs all the surface area for grip it can get to keep from loosening or shearing off. An 18mm was just about the largest that could fit in the space without making some kind of crazy special fastener bolt like a 17mm with a larger shaft diameter and head than normal.

I think you are seeing kind of a "right sizing"....or maybe a correct sizing of fasteners on cars.

Or it could just be illegal meddling from the bastard size wrench lobby Laughing as suggested. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
Cusser wrote:
My 1971 JC Penney Penncraft metric combination wrenches are still going strong, lifetime warranty !!!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Of course it is, there is little use for a 15mm wrench on a bug (rear wheel seal carrier) or any other car for that matter. I bet your 16mm & 18mm look pristine. Laughing


Other examples of still going strong
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

Those blue points date from the 1930s
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

Funny, as I have never had to use the 16mm wrenches and sockets in my sets. Ever.

I have used the 18mm deep socket a few times. On 70's Honda motorcycle spark plugs.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
Funny, as I have never had to use the 16mm wrenches and sockets in my sets. Ever.

I have used the 18mm deep socket a few times. On 70's Honda motorcycle spark plugs.


16 and 18 common on Toyota and Honda automobiles
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

One of the odder sizes VW liked to use was the 9mm 12 point for the flywheel on Golf/Jetta.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

so.... where do you get that jc penny wrench warranteed?
Ive got somany sets of renches and some have this one missing some have that one missing wtf is it that dam hard to put all the dam renches in the dam package and not skip the 9or11or16, or 15, or 18,or20,or 21 or whatever they decide to leave out !!dam how effing stupid. I can see missing a W or something like that but weather renches has a W or not....it's still pronounced wrenches and if your brain cant figure that one out the wrenches may be way beyond your abilitys..... but missing the wrench you need and...crap I just bought this effing set of renches. Wink . My first set of crapsman wrenches I ordered when I was in japan working on motorcycles.we ordered a lot at the same time of a few different sets and sockets too, nothing was duplicated so we could get more variation. When they arrived....everything was duplicated x3.what a smile that will put on a kids face...2 kids faces and...a dad. all for the original low price we had paid. how did they know there was 3 of us?? I still have 95% of them...or more. I now have somany tools my isue is trying to figure out where they go....as in witch tool chest/box did I get it out of.( I seem to have too many of those too Shocked if there could be such a thing Wink )
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
so...Ive got somany sets of renches and some have this one missing some have that one missing wtf is it that dam hard to put all the dam renches in the dam package. I now have somany tools my isue is trying to figure out where they go....as in witch tool chest/box did I get it out of.( I seem to have too many of those too Shocked if there could be such a thing Wink )


By your own admission you've revealed that you Marc tucckr are the perfect candidate to jump headfirst into a 5S program complete with shadow boarding too identify wear the missing tools belong. Reed back up aye few pages to git thee idea.
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