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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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 Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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Jason, the 57 and earlier clutch pedal shaft is quite a bit longer than the '58 and later... the bracket was acting as a pedal stop, AND a support for the clutch pedal shaft. with only the one small bushing for the clutch pedal shaft, and it being on the other end by the hook, they needed something to help hold the shaft..I thought about putting double bushings in, as well, but turning down the shaft to accommodate the bronze oilite bushing is cheaper, does the same thing, and probably supports the shaft better, being at the end of the shaft... The oilite bushings are like $3.00 for a pack of 3, and it just so happens I have 3 pedal assemblies I am working on 
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dsrtfox
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| 57 Blitz, I haven't put the American's on it. I searched for years to find a perfect set with no cracks or repairs and they ain't cheap. I always thought they would fit my 356, and they don't, not even close. I have a set of original Porsche 356 wheels that I'll put on my Oval for now. The Oval is currently in Berg 5 prison. Steve Holingsworth is doing the conversion as we speak. Do you live in this area? Curt... |
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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I'm not in the PHX area, but I do know that if you're lucky enough to be able to have Steve Hollingsworth work on your engine or trans, you're lucky enough...
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dsrtfox
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| Steve built the car originally so he was my first choice... |
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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smart move and excellent choice
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72MUST
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2007
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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From 57Blitz
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There is that pair of brackets that are bolted to the floor pan . . . One bracket is the stop for the brake pedal . . . the other bracket does double-duty as the stop for the clutch pedal and also the support for the clutch shaft.
This is what the bracket "sandwich" looks like from the top . . . the brake pedal stop plate is on the bottom and very hard to see in the photo.
Notice that I turned-down the diameter of the end of the clutch shaft so I was able to fit the "Oilite" bushing into the bracket to better support the clutch shaft . . . |
Interesting thread & neat approach to wear issue using the oilite bush !
Good idea to do a trial run with an unpainted pan 
I have seen a '57 with original pans ...a replacement pedal assy had been rebushed including an extra "top hat" bush inboard of the clutch pedal. However with this extra bush ,installing the clutch pedal stop bracket on top of the brake pedal stop bracket would cause everything to bind somewhat.
I guess with the original set up ,the clutch pedal shaft is supported farther apart & with the clutch pedal pivot/stop bracket metal not being too heavy ,it all works ok even with small dimensional variances on different cars.
Presumably all oval pedal assys are the same where they mate up to the side of the tunnel ? |
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| 72MUST wrote: |
Interesting thread & neat approach to wear issue using the oilite bush !
Good idea to do a trial run with an unpainted pan
Presumably all oval pedal assys are the same where they mate up to the side of the tunnel ? |
Thanks 72MUST!
That photo is when I had to check the position of the plate before welding to the floor pan.
While everything was bolted down, I checked to be sure the clutch shaft was centered within the brake pedal's tubular shaft.
I then scored the pan around the outline of the plate, then "rosette" welded to plate in from the top so that it looked nice from underneath.
Regarding the interchange possibilities of Oval-era pedals . . . sorry, but all my ovals have been either '56 or '57.
Dave . . . I failed to record those bushing numbers, but if it helps ya, I might be able to take a few measurements to determine what bushings I used.
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72MUST
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2007
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
While everything was bolted down, I checked to be sure the clutch shaft was centered within the brake pedal's tubular shaft.
I then scored the pan around the outline of the plate, then "rosette" welded to plate in from the top so that it looked nice from underneath.
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Thanks for that.
Interesting that your clutch pedal shaft was concentric with brake pedal tubular shaft when the 2 pedal stop plates were in place (as you'd hope it would be), in the case of the '57 I mentioned previously ,the extra outer bush would have kept the shafts concentric ,but the two stop plates on top of each other ,was too much thickness & caused binding even though pan 1/2s were original. I wonder whether originally the pedal assys were matched to the pan ... mounting holes in main alum body where it mounts to tunnel elongated a little or the mounting face shaved a little to raise up the outer end of the clutch pedal shaft or pan bashed down a little where that reinforced threaded plate is ,so as the 2 stop plates work correctly...
strange stuff ! |
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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I think that if the clutch shaft is close to being centered, it is close enough. It just needs to move freely in the inner bushing and not bind inside the brake pedal.
Adding a second bushing inside the tubular brake pedal "shaft" could certainly lead to binding. My bet is that is the reason VW changed the design . . . so that the brake pedal pivots on the snout that is part of the base . . . a MUCH improved design! Back in "The Day", all it would take is an unwitting service station attendant jack up the car in the wrong place and the pedals could get messed up for sure!
In retrospect, for my car, I would have fabricated a larger "Nut-Plate" for the bottom of the pan . . . one that would tie into the "Napoleon's Hat" and even all the way over to the tunnel! Having that mounting point as stout as possible is a GOOD thing!
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
| Dave . . . I failed to record those bushing numbers, but if it helps ya, I might be able to take a few measurements to determine what bushings I used. |
Thanks, 57 Blitz, I hit the McMaster-Carr website, and came up with the oilite bronze, 9/16" O.D. / 7/16" ID / 1/2 " length..got them today, it's a tight squeeze into the clutch pedal shaft bracket, but I wanted a tight fit...I'll turn down the smaller portion of the shaft to just a few thou under 7/16", and it should be all good, thanks for the help, and the idea..
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| Dave wrote: |
| I hit the McMaster-Carr website, and came up with the oilite bronze, 9/16" O.D. / 7/16" ID / 1/2 " length..got them today, it's a tight squeeze into the clutch pedal shaft bracket, but I wanted a tight fit...I'll turn down the smaller portion of the shaft to just a few thou under 7/16", and it should be all good, thanks for the help, and the idea.. |
The bushing you selected should work.
I went a slightly different route with one of these . . . https://www.mcmaster.com/#6338k417/=16cwurb
I bored out the egg-shaped hole in my rusty, old bracket to accept the O.D. of the larger-sized bushing.
I wanted to leave the end of the clutch shaft diameter as large as possible to provide more bearing surface.
After pressing the bushing in, the I.D measured at 0.499", so I turned the clutch shaft down to 0.498" and polished it with 220 and 400 grit paper. The shaft now measures 0.4975".
If I were to do it over, I would probably start with one of these . . . http://www.fastfabonline.com/Pedal-Support-Plate_c_46.html
Since I am an amateur (I do NOT consider my self a machinist!), I am curious as to how you chuck the clutch shaft in your lathe . . . will you share a pic . . . please Dave?
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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We are going to drill and knock off the hook on the end, as we intend to do a Classic Bugs/PedalWerks style grade 8 bolt and nylock nut in place of the hook. with the hook off, we can chuck it into the lathe.. I will be making new shafts, as soon as I get the 1041 steel rod I ordered. We haven't done any of this yet, but my local machine shop has let me pretty much have free reign over his lathes and etc, as long as he isn't using them at the time. And I will be having the machine shop owner weld everything up (His Home made Bonneville car has run a 337 on a 348 record, and he did all the welding on the chassis and etc, so I trust him..)
Now, I have a question for YOU
Because of the 1/16" lip on the bronze oilite flange, I am concerned that on my stock Oval floorpan, the brackets may not line up as the should..I am thinking of machining off the same amount (1/16") off the bottom of the clutch pedal, on the outside, to move everything back in line.. does that sound right to you? I am thinking of offering a complete kit, clutch pedal shaft, with the new grade 8 bolt instead of the hook, brake and clutch pedal stop with Oilite bushing, and clutch pedal with 1/16" milled off the outer end...Trying to keep these Ovals with big clutches from having such a problem with the hooks..
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Last edited by Dave on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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| Dave wrote: |
Now, I have a question for YOU
Because of the 1/16" lip on the bronze oilite flange, I am concerned that on my stock Oval floorpan, the brackets may not line up as the should..I am thinking of machining off the same amount (1/16") off the bottom of the clutch pedal, on the outside, to move everything back in line.. does that sound right to you? |
As you've probably gathered, that was not a concern to me because I knew I would need to position and weld the nut plate to the new floor pan.
With that said, the "stop" portion of the plates seems to line-up just fine on my pedals.
I do not remember removing a specific amount from the side of the clutch pedal, but it was probably just to clean it up . . . the entire pedal assembly was ONE big hunk of rust when I removed it from the chassis!
By any chance, do have a pedal assembly already taken apart to measure parts? Mine is now powder-coated and reassembled so, LMK the O.D. of the clutch shaft where the clutch pedal fits, okay?
The width of my clutch pedal (where it fits on the shaft and contacts the new bushing flange) measures 0.840" . . . compare that to your pedal.
I have a feeling that, in stock form, there IS clearance between the plate and the side of the clutch pedal . . . sufficient room for the bushing flange.
You should test fit the pedal assembly to your chassis to determine if you will need to make an accommodation for the new bushing. 
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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57 Blitz, the pedal shaft O.D. is 17mm.. I'll get out to the garage in a day or two, and measure the width of the bottom of the clutch pedal, I have THREE of them I am playing with so I can measure all three, and I expect a little variance between them..and the width, at the bottom of the clutch pedal, on the 3 I have apart right now, go anywhere from .784" to .788"...so losing 1/16th of an inch off the one side shouldn't pose a problem, still plenty of material left around the shear pin hole, and should make everything line up just like factory
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Dave
Samba Elder
Joined: July 11, 2002
Posts: 2693
Location: The Forest Moon of Endor, in the Redwoods
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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Tried turning the chamfer on an original clutch shaft for clearance for the bushing..MAN is that some tough steel !!!!
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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Here is a photo of my original shaft on the left and a new one which was sourced from a European seller a couple years ago. Both are VW stamped on the end and identical length and shape other than the hook.
The new shaft came with a part number tag 111 721 305. I've looked in a couple parts manuals and they show this number as fitting up to chassis 1397022 in November 1956 which would be correct as my chassis number is slightly older than that. But I'm not aware of any pedal cluster changes until 1958 models when they made the big change to flat accelerator pedal and relocated clutch cable tube.
What do the pedal cluster gurus think about this?
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66brm
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 3676
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Pedal assembly question |
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I remember reading that there was a change about the same time as the park brake changed from push rod to cable. Don't ask where I read it but It does ring something in the back recesses of my brain
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