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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: zwitter turn signals |
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I just purchase a oct 52 zwitter and it has turn signals on top off fenders, previouse owner said it was a dealership option? I cant find any info on. something off a semi. Any info apreciated
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usariemen Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004 Posts: 1745 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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This was only an DIY option for moron owners. _________________ Master of my domain! |
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Blue Baron VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006 Posts: 23752 Location: Southeast USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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Nice car!
Lights such as these were often added provisionally to conform to traffic laws in countries in which the cars were exported, because by the 1950s, semaphores were considered obsolete.
Another example were the headlights. Most Beetle headlights were illegal in the U.S., because many traffic laws after 1940 specified sealed beams. As a solution, Volkswagen had Hella develop a special headlight bucket with a clear lens that accepted sealed beam bulbs, and the cars were shipped to North America with empty buckets, with the U.S.-made bulbs (usually General Electric) installed by dealers or distributors. _________________ We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:13 am Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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so could be installed by dealer? but so ugly |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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no volkswagen dealer would have installed after market lights like that. By the time people wanted better blinkers and taillights, VW had better blinkers and taillights. That is why so many early beetles have later beetle blinkers and taillights. It would have been easy and it would have used VW parts.
get rid of them before anybody sees you with them _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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... back in 1976, I acquired a 1950 11G and it had the same rear aftermarket "beehive" type lights, which worked as directional and stop lights. That owner told me he got the car that way, 20 years before... I couldn't get 'um off fast enough...
... seems to be some continuity in their positioning... that's too coincidental to me... could very well have been a dealer installation... maybe just the right height.
_________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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i wonder if dealers install without advice from vw. maybee i remove and use fiberglass to patch hole so someday i can put back on if desired. this is a sepifore car so maybe it done to pass dmv when imported. |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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parker007 wrote: |
i wonder if dealers install without advice from vw. maybee i remove and use fiberglass to patch hole so someday i can put back on if desired. this is a sepifore car so maybe it done to pass dmv when imported. |
i think the ones on zenvwdriver's car sit much lower, and there are 2 sets of them. I can't imaging a VW dealer doing something like that, but, as said above, he could not wait to get them off!
take them off, weld it up, done. They look horrible.... Fix the semaphores instead _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:18 am Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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that 50 lookes like it is european car also i think i see semiphores same as mine. |
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Mr. OGPaint Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010 Posts: 821 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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-All zwitters and split Windows came with semaphores, the ribbed or grooved variety. All beetles before April of 1955 had semaphore signals exclusively as well.
There is a 0.0000001 percent chance those turnsignals on the rear fenders were installed when new by a dealer, the chance those signals came from the factory is zero. The Overrider bumpers were added sometime after the car was new, the lower Vw snowflake lights were also added at a later point. Updating the rear lights or adding accessory rear lights was very common in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. _________________ https://instagram.com/mr.ogpaint
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Patrick Hall |
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Blue Baron VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006 Posts: 23752 Location: Southeast USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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mandraks wrote: |
no volkswagen dealer would have installed after market lights like that. |
I disagree. The cars needed to conform to state laws. Remember, there were very few cars sold here in the early years, just hundreds per year. Dealers installed lights such as these on brand new cars so they could sell them. We're talking about the dealers, not the distributors. They also cut holes for radio antennas, but I don't hear people saying no antenna was ever installed by a dealer.
The buyers didn't know the difference, because the lights were already installed on the car before they bought them. You see many photos of early cars in publications such as Foreign Car Guide with lights such as these. It was common practice to replace the semaphores. As I said, they were installed provisionally, meaning they had to add them until the factory made them available. There was no specific location to put them, just like the antennas. The hole was wherever the mechanic drilled it. Many of these cars also had universal-style turn signal switches on the steering column, as the semaphore switch wouldn't work.
Once again, many state laws outlawed semaphores and non-sealed beam headlights, and these items needed to be changed provisionally to make the cars legal to register and conform to motor vehicle laws. Remember, this was just a cheap little foreign car. The buyers probably didn't notice or care whether the lights were factory or not. _________________ We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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I belive they put on at dealer also, the fact that all 4 fenders still there and all 4 lights still present seem suprising, im considering leaving lights judt to make conversation with other vw persuists hahaah. |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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Blue Baron wrote: |
mandraks wrote: |
no volkswagen dealer would have installed after market lights like that. |
I disagree. The cars needed to conform to state laws. Remember, there were very few cars sold here in the early years, just hundreds per year. Dealers installed lights such as these on brand new cars so they could sell them. We're talking about the dealers, not the distributors. They also cut holes for radio antennas, but I don't hear people saying no antenna was ever installed by a dealer.
...
Once again, many state laws outlawed semaphores and non-sealed beam headlights, and these items needed to be changed provisionally to make the cars legal to register and conform to motor vehicle laws. Remember, this was just a cheap little foreign car. The buyers probably didn't notice or care whether the lights were factory or not. |
interesting thought. I did not consider that it would have been possible to import and sell a brandnew car that did not meet the laws of the land.
I can see a private person importing a vehicle on their own and learning of the legal requirements after arrival, just never crossed my mind that VW would be allowed to import cars that were illegal the day they were unloaded.
i bet there was a ton of american cars with semaphores or just one taillight still driving around all over the united states in 1950. _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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parker007 Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2011 Posts: 132 Location: california
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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I live in CA and im sure even in 1953 many gov officials look for reason to keep foreign cars from meeting standards, im sure ford or gm not get same restrictions then. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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There was not much (if any) variation in lighting regulations among states. DOT, NHTSA, and later FMVSS standardized the rules so Detroit (and others) didn't have to make 50 damn variations.
California got permission to make unique smog regulations, but that's about it. That particular rule is already under discussion and may change in the new administration.
Different countries varied all over the globe. If a car was originally destined for one market, and was then imported (by an owner, a distributor, even a dealer), then changes would be made.
Federal rules changed, of course, over time, including front parking lights and turn signals (F&R) allowing amber, halogen headlamps, etc.
But I was not aware there were ever any differences among the states, at a particular point in time, in headlights, running lights, or turn signals. |
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Mr. OGPaint Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010 Posts: 821 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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VWs were being sold new at U.S. dealers in 1952 and 1953 with the exact same lighting as euro delivery cars except the headlights _________________ https://instagram.com/mr.ogpaint
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Patrick Hall |
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Blue Baron VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006 Posts: 23752 Location: Southeast USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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mandraks wrote: |
interesting thought. I did not consider that it would have been possible to import and sell a brandnew car that did not meet the laws of the land. |
In the early 1950s Americans were buying new U.S. cars at the rate of about a million a year, and Volkswagen was selling a few hundred. Those few cars weren't even a blip on the radar. Also keep in mind that there were very few dealers selling strictly Volkswagens. Most handled multiple foreign car lines and lighting modifications would have been a routine thing. Install a set of fog lights here, install a set of turn signals there, no big deal. Is it really so far fetched to think some of them installed flashing indicators on new cars, especially when not a single American car used semaphores?
Parker 007 asked if it was a dealership option. As there was no organized dealer network until the mid '50s, it might have been an option independent dealers offered their customers as a courtesy. If some here are certain they were never installed that's fine. It's not the hill I choose to die on. _________________ We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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Blue Baron wrote: |
mandraks wrote: |
interesting thought. I did not consider that it would have been possible to import and sell a brandnew car that did not meet the laws of the land. |
In the early 1950s Americans were buying new U.S. cars at the rate of about a million a year, and Volkswagen was selling a few hundred. Those few cars weren't even a blip on the radar. Also keep in mind that there were very few dealers selling strictly Volkswagens. Most handled multiple foreign car lines and lighting modifications would have been a routine thing. Install a set of fog lights here, install a set of turn signals there, no big deal. Is it really so far fetched to think some of them installed flashing indicators on new cars, especially when not a single American car used semaphores?
Parker 007 asked if it was a dealership option. As there was no organized dealer network until the mid '50s, it might have been an option independent dealers offered their customers as a courtesy. If some here are certain they were never installed that's fine. It's not the hill I choose to die on. |
no need to choose a hill to die on, we would miss you I am in fact considering that this could have happened, as surprising as it seems.
I live in georgia where the roads were not paved until the 70s, no beetles prior to the late 50s, and horse and buggies common through the 50s. certainly no need for traffic indicators. When i moved here people still stuck the arm out of the window... _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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... I still use hand signals an most other drivers, have no clue as to what I'm doing... most understand a left turn.
... seems my 1950 11G with those signals was a gray market car, coming into the USA in 1952 and titled as such... bet the owner was forced to install more current lighting.... I removed those dealer installed lights... original or not, 1/2 the fun of owning an early VW is the primitive lighting and using hand signals. _________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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René R. Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2015 Posts: 1705 Location: No. Calif.
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: zwitter turn signals |
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I learned to drive in the early 60s, in New England. Hand signals were still part of the driver manual, and definitely part of driver education.
I long since gave up on using them since no one understands them now. Most people think you're just waving (at best) or are totally perplexed.
I agree that part of the fun is the primitiveness of early VWs but I feel just a tiny bit safer with flashing LEDs in my semaphores. I still fear that most people have no clue, or just don't see them. But if they do, at least the flashing is familiar and might jog their brains enough to understand. Fortunately, most of the time it really isn't even necessary to use signals. Most turn lanes today are defined, which was not the case in the 60s.
Still, driving a vintage VW is a lot like riding a motorcycle. You're very exposed, very unsafe, and need to be hyper-aware. _________________ Gone but not forgotten: 1950 Hoffman split (restored in 1966) - another 1950 Hoffman split (restored in 1996) |
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